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'Unreasonable' standards
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Cobalt-60 ()
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think when it comes to unreasonable standards, the original poster was referring to things like this...
(skip ahead to the last 2 posts in the thread)
http://www.forum.rebellegion.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=996876#996876

here, a prospective new member was turned away because they had a seam on the top of the tabbards (@ the shoulder), on a generic jedi costume.

this seems a bit "unreasonable", to scrutinize construction seams (especially on a 'generic' costume, where this requirement is NOT mentioned in the standards).



given the number of jedi in the movies who have a seam on the top of the shoulder,
it took five minutes to find 4 examples.

I believe that scrutinizing 'construction seams' on a generic costume is a bit overzealous.
(or shall we say, "unreasonable").

and I believe this can serve to 'turn away' prospective members who might just get 'turned off' and give up.



if Blair could look into this, and reach out to this prospective member,
then this would go a long way to making this new member feel welcome.

I have provided references of 2 characters (one generic character + one face character (anakin) x3 variant costumes) which all display a seam on the top of the shoulder.

I believe this applicant was denied for the wrong reasons.





cheers.
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Cobalt-60 ()
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^ in the above post we see things being enforced, which are NOT in the standards.

this is a problem which can be "unreasonable":

when the judges become overzealous, and enforce things which are not in the standards.

-=====-

the other side of this coin is: things which DO appear in the standards, which are "unreasonable" and shouldn't be there.

here is my example:

(I almost regret taking this photo, because (IMO) it has caused nothing but trouble).
https://imageshack.com/a/img661/6696/QpagvV.jpg
and/or
https://imageshack.com/a/img661/1381/6KbhLR.jpg

these photos show the "Texture" of the inner-bib on the Luke ROTJ costume.
I took the photos myself with my own camera.





unfortunately, this "texture" found its way into the ROTJ standards for the "Jabba's Palace / Sarlac pit" version of the costume.

Quote:
"1. Fitted, black long-sleeve plastron shirt w/mandarin-type collar. The bib should be lined with a slubby, linen look fabric in white or very light gray. No visible fastener if the bib is worn open."


why is this unfortunate?

because, for those who have seen the movie, the bib remains closed until the death star duel.

at no point in 'jabba's palace' NOR the 'sarlac pit' does this bib-flap come down;
at NO POINT in these scenes do we ever "See" the inner lining of the bib.

so why is it in the standards? this is "unreasonable"



even MORE unreasonable: this requirement does NOT appear in the "death star duel" version of the standards, where it belongs (!) LOL Razz

Quote:
1. Black long-sleeve shirt w/mandarin-type collar, with fold-over bib (w/exposeable section by right shoulder with light grey lining).


if this 'texture' is to be required AT ALL, it should be in the "death star duel" version of the standards.
but this requirement does not appear here. because it's simply just not that important.

and this creates a problem:
if this is NOT required for the death star duel version (where the bib is worn open and the lining is cisible)...
...then it becomes "Unreasonable" to include it for the "jabba's palace" scene (where the bib remains closed and the lining is NEVER seen).

why do we have standards for things that are never seen? this is unreasonable.




^^ by comparison (of one Luke standard to the next) we see:
(a) SOME standards in the legion have items which can be seen as "Unreasonable" to a new/prospective member;
(b) there is no 'consistency' from one set of standards to the next.

(and (c) requiring a specific "texture" on a bib-flap which always remains closed,
is "unreasonable" -- regardless of the other luke standards)
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ladysolo14 ()
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I'll say it one last time if people have issues they need to be directed to me and the LMO team. I cannot help if I do not know about it and I can't read every post on the forum.

I can be reached via PM or the follow email addresses:

LMO@rebellegion.com
enlistment@rebellegion.com

If I don't know about it I can't help. If you know anyone with issues please encourage them to contact me.
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Lora Skywalker ()
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I highly encourage anyone who thinks they are being unfairly treated to contact the LM team, but please also make sure you have read the standard and done your research on the costume first.
It's easy to become angry and upset, but it is harder to take a critical look at your own work and think it over before you reply. Lashing out won't solve anything, but if applicants write back it might. Communication is a two way street, and way too often applicants never reply no matter how helpful the LCJs try to be. I speak of (bitter) experience where I have tried to help, only to be met with silence. No one can help anyone, who won't communicate.


Now, regarding the CS for Senatorial Leia, I don't really know what to say. I'm not a native English speaker either, Danish is my mother tongue, but I have had to learn the English terms as part of this hobby.
And though I know you don't believe it, knit is actually the correct term for the fabric, since that is what we (the legion) are looking for: a fabric that is knit together rather than woven.
In Danish this would be 'strikket' versus 'vævet'.
Jersey is just one type of knit fabric, but not all types of knit fabric. (For example isoli is another type of knit fabric. Wouldn't recommend isoli for this particular costume though; too thick and fussy). And in Danish jersey would probably not lead people to the right kind of fabric half the time.
The reason the standard asks for a knit fabric is due to the way knit fabrics drape; they generally drape softer and in a more fluid way than woven fabrics do. Woven fabrics tend to be stiffer and won't end up in a flat puddle on the floor if you drop it, but keep some shape.

Do we try to be mindful of translations when writing standards? Of course we do. But there will always be problems when translating betweens languages no matter what you do. Some words simply don't mean the same across the languages and many words have multiple meaning, which can easily cause things to be mistranslated. And there is no way we can prevent this other than trying to be as precise as possible with the English terms and hope the translations won't be completely messed up.
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neimhaille ()
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lokrin wrote:

please define knit cloth as the translation into german does not make any sense to me as my translaten "gewebt" is covered by every cloth


Google translate does in fact work very well in this instance:

https://translate.google.co.nz/?hl=en#en/de/knit%20fabric


I might make another suggestion: translation applications will re-translate what we try to translate.

I read a lot of German. I also buy books from German websites quite often. I use Chrome to translate so I can pay and make sure my shipping is correct. I also sometimes need to email the seller.
When I do this I write in plain English, then I add a link to google translate, then I copy what that translates to. I don't presume to know if the seller has an automatic translator in their browser as they probably are used to email in their own language not mine. This way we both know if the translation is faulty or good.
But regardless of whether they are using a translator they can see where I have tried to use their language and where I have been using mine.
The two sections are separated and not mixed together.

Over all I do see the need to make our guides more technically minded.

It will make them seem less useful initially except that people can then just copy and paste what they are not familiar with into a good search engine and find the answer. I for instance have nearly every 19th century sewing/tailoring/dressmaking manual and they are all searchable online. So It is very easy now to figure out what the difference is between pick stitch and back stitch, and what whipping actually means.
Understanding why an underlining is required is easier now than ever as well.
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Ritin Kornas ()
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just like that...
It's not because google can translate something... that it is translating it appropriately...

If you take the example of knit fabric, to French it will become tricot, which can be appropriate for knit, but not in the case of leia Wink.
And for your example of whipping, it would just make no sense in French. And searching on google images would not help much, while whipstitching on the contrary would be really clear (I guess it's what it means here).

Also, to annoy often enough when rewriting standard, I can tell that sometimes it is translated accurately (generally more by something like linguee that google poor translator for technical words). BUT, I'll take the example of Endor Leia hood. We had big debate on that as I was not understanding what the other was meaning, and finally when I got it, I could understand the translation, but that was such an obscure and old way to say it in French, that at first I just could not understand...

Finally you say sewing and tailoring, etc. manuals are searchable online...
Maybe, but just remember that some people don't or really barely speak english in the RL, and if they are beginners with sewing for example, they will probably have no idea a stitching can be different and thus for them a stitching will be a stitching...

I think any new standards should be checked at least by a non native english for translation issue Wink and to be sure not everything is too obscure. Of course, some obscurity might remain because translation will work in language A and B but not in language C, but it would be better than no check.
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Ken'Sa Tansuri (Sam Tanksley)
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great subject, and not a new one. Different groups at the Renfaire had costume approval to do to work or play at the faire. After meticulous research and handwork to ensure the correct fabric, buttons, and colors, Some customer would make it on to the front page in a florescent spandex jester outfit. Evil or Very Mad And yes, we had "Costume Nazis".

Standards that are too tight, and you discourage membership. Low costume requirements lead to Halloween costumes that do not look professional. Also to people that are not committed enough to be an asset to the RL.
My wife was on this forum for quite sometime, and posted photos and asked questions. She is a master costumer. She also dresses me. When she finally submitted a costume for approval, it only took about a week or so. She had already ironed out the kinks on the costuming forum. On a budget.

The speed and ease of her approval has encouraged me to apply and submit photos as well. The acknowledgment of the application was quick. Now I am checking my email every hour or so for a decision. Kinda like an 8 year old. Just as bad as waiting and tracking my new light-sabre. Laughing Very Happy
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kman ()
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I can say is "bravo" to Blair and those who are working incredibly hard to improve the current process. It's a massive undertaking, and there is no pleasing everyone: Someone will always think it goes to far, while someone else thinks the changes don't go far enough.

The biggest job is updating the website, AND the forums. Honestly I think that improvement, above all others, will help the most people. Get rid of the deprecated CRL pages (or at least tag them as "not to be used anymore"), fix broken links (where possible), bring the revised CRLs up to the new specs, and finally, clarifying and documenting policies and procedures in a clear and understandable manner ... oh, and then there's all the normal judging, approving, and general work that the position entails.

Translations are even trickier, as this thread has made clear. The sad truth is sometimes the perfect words to describe something in English simply are not going to be perfectly translated into other languages by free online translation tools. There's a reason why certified translators make good livings. Does the website have a way to include alternate CRLs in different languages? Naturally, volunteers for each language would need to step up to assist, and until someone does this for every CRL, there will always be issues. But using words that don't describe things as well in English, solely for the benefit of online translation tools, doesn't seem like the best option, either.

I'm drifting off topic, I suppose, but all of these points have been made previously in this thread, so it's likely inevitable.

What IS clear is this is a monumental task that no one can shoulder alone. Everyone who cares would be better served by stepping up and offering assistance, moreso than complaining that everything isn't exactly the way you want.
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Ken'Sa Tansuri (Sam Tanksley)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kman wrote:
All I can say is "bravo" to Blair and those who are working incredibly hard -----Break----

Translations are even trickier, as this thread has made clear. The sad truth is sometimes the perfect words to describe something in English simply are not going to be perfectly translated into other languages by free online translation tools. There's a reason why certified translators make good livings. Does the website have a way to include alternate CRLs in different languages? Naturally, volunteers for each language would need to step up to assist, and until someone does this for every CRL, there will always be issues. But using words that don't describe things as well in English, solely for the benefit of online translation tools, doesn't seem like the best option, either.

---Break---
. Everyone who cares would be better served by stepping up and offering assistance, moreso than complaining that everything isn't exactly the way you want.


A good start is a universal translation of certain terms, like a dictionary of how certain words will be used in certain languages. example: Jedi has become universal, but not Knight or "lightsaber" -- Or "lightsabre". English has dialects too. So does Spanish. "Espada de luz" might be adapted, or perhaps "espadaluz". One is proper, the other would be instantly recognized as specific for a Spanish speaking fan. If all translations use the same name for clarity, it would help. In Japan would a Jedi Knight be a Jedi nitsu (Stupid silent letters in English) or could we use the more cultural /ethnic "Jedi Samurai"? Jedi sama? Many cultures have elite warriors, or warrior/monks that are not called "Knights".
Here are some thoughts.

1. Establish a word list for Star Wars terms and phrases, in each major language, trying to use as many universal words as they can.

2. Use an educated native speaker that is a fan to vet or preferably, do each translation.

3. Have the translation vetted by another native speaker that reads the translation in his own language first, to see if it rings true.

It is fortunate that the original work is done in English, because they are many people around the world that have English as a primary or secondary language.

As always, this is a considered opinion from an old guy that has been around, and knows stuff. I am new enough to this forum that all this may have been already covered. I am open to discussion, because I might learn something. I might come across as an authority, but I am not.
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kman ()
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ken'Sa Tansuri wrote:
kman wrote:
All I can say is "bravo" to Blair and those who are working incredibly hard -----Break----

Translations are even trickier, as this thread has made clear. The sad truth is sometimes the perfect words to describe something in English simply are not going to be perfectly translated into other languages by free online translation tools. There's a reason why certified translators make good livings. Does the website have a way to include alternate CRLs in different languages? Naturally, volunteers for each language would need to step up to assist, and until someone does this for every CRL, there will always be issues. But using words that don't describe things as well in English, solely for the benefit of online translation tools, doesn't seem like the best option, either.

---Break---
. Everyone who cares would be better served by stepping up and offering assistance, moreso than complaining that everything isn't exactly the way you want.


A good start is a universal translation of certain terms, like a dictionary of how certain words will be used in certain languages. example: Jedi has become universal, but not Knight or "lightsaber" -- Or "lightsabre". English has dialects too. So does Spanish. "Espada de luz" might be adapted, or perhaps "espadaluz". One is proper, the other would be instantly recognized as specific for a Spanish speaking fan. If all translations use the same name for clarity, it would help. In Japan would a Jedi Knight be a Jedi nitsu (Stupid silent letters in English) or could we use the more cultural /ethnic "Jedi Samurai"? Jedi sama? Many cultures have elite warriors, or warrior/monks that are not called "Knights".
Here are some thoughts.

1. Establish a word list for Star Wars terms and phrases, in each major language, trying to use as many universal words as they can.

2. Use an educated native speaker that is a fan to vet or preferably, do each translation.

3. Have the translation vetted by another native speaker that reads the translation in his own language first, to see if it rings true.

It is fortunate that the original work is done in English, because they are many people around the world that have English as a primary or secondary language.

As always, this is a considered opinion from an old guy that has been around, and knows stuff. I am new enough to this forum that all this may have been already covered. I am open to discussion, because I might learn something. I might come across as an authority, but I am not.


I can't (and wouldn't) speak for everyone, but I don't think basic Star Wars terminology is the issue with the translations. As this thread has shows, it's more basic terms, like fabric types (knit vs woven, and how those terms translate through an automatic translation service instead of someone who is very fluent in both languages INCLUDING fabric-specific terminology used in both languages), and to use the experience of updating the Generic Jedi CRL, even something as "simple" as colors. (Say "Gun-metal" to someone in the US and they know what you mean, but run that through Google Translate into German, and much confusion results)
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Ken'Sa Tansuri (Sam Tanksley)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="
I can't (and wouldn't) speak for everyone, but I don't think basic Star Wars terminology is the issue with the translations. As this thread has shows, it's more basic terms, like fabric types (knit vs woven, and how those terms translate through an automatic translation service instead of someone who is very fluent in both languages INCLUDING fabric-specific terminology used in both languages), and to use the experience of updating the Generic Jedi CRL, even something as "simple" as colors. (Say "Gun-metal" to someone in the US and they know what you mean, but run that through Google Translate into German, and much confusion results)[/quote]

My bad. You are so right. I just got carried away with the language thing that I lost track of the more basic costuming applications. Still, I ran across a spot that was talking about fabric colors, and had a universal color chart. That was very helpful. Doing the same for fabrics would be much harder because of the textures.
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coryphefish (Colleen J)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fun trivia: The forum area for translated copies of the Legion charter has only three posts (French, German, and Spanish) and hasn't been added to for five years. I would think that would be a higher priority than individual costume standards. And ultimately, things won't get accurately translated unless there are people who speak those languages who want to work to get them translated.

Really though (and I've been wanting to say this for a while) I think the dead horse is soundly beaten here. This is a topic about "unreasonable" costume standards that's gone on for EIGHT pages, and hey good news! We're all going to get a chance to contribute to make better ones! Check out my "10 ways to help your detachment" post in this same subforum, and let's all go help each other make accurate costumes more effectively. I would like to think that everyone who commented here is also eager to go contribute to the revision project once the detachments start issuing guidance and timelines. Smile
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ColoradoRey ()
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A thought on requiring WIPs since it was mentioned a few times.

I hate these forums. I hate how it is hard to find stuff on it, it logs me out, does not remember me, and is super hard to read and type on my phone. I only come on here the bear min. I am active on Ladies of Legion which is on facebook and I submit my pics and ask my questions there. I get more responses there and lots of great info. So just because you do not see them asking on these forums does not mean they are not asking and researching.


Last edited by ColoradoRey () on Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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coryphefish (Colleen J)
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Helping people in Facebook groups is like the Groundhog Day movie without a permanent way to organize all the resources people are researching. I never require WIPs, but I highly encourage them as a way to gather all your research together. A week later, you can post an update and share the link to your entire build to LotL. A month later, you can easily link someone to that one thing you did. Six months later, when you need something for another costume, you're not desperately trying to search keywords.

Not that the forums make it easy, I agree. I think there's an upgrade planned in the near-ish future.

And as a detachment XO, this is seriously my favorite topic. "How do we help members make approvable costumes more effectively?" I think the answer is some optimized combination of better forums, websites, and Facebook groups.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried my best to follow this thread (as a Spanish native speaker sometimes it's difficult to understand the specific language, as I think was already mentioned above) and I feel like giving my 2 cents as someone who's working really hard to get her Ceremonial Leia approved but hasn't submitted any costume yet.

To be honest, discovering this thread kinda discouraged me a bit, and I got my head full of doubts (which can be summarize as "omg I don't think I'll be good enough")

As I was reading though this, I saw someone's dress was not accepted cause of the fabric, I started doing research on the right fabric for a Ceremonial Leia dress but I couldn't find anything in the standards required, and I'm not really getting feedback on the WIP thread I started here either (I got a response saying it looked good, but it was not coming from a judge, so, even though I really appreciated it, is not that usefull).
I also started a WIP thread on the Spanish Base forum and I got a lot of nice coments, but still no feedback, mostly cause I think that we don't have any active member with that dress approved there.
The thing is, two weeks later my dress is finished, I got the shoes, the hair extensions are on it's way and I only need to finish the belt and the accesories (necklace and bracelet).

My point is, in this whole process, the only help I got were pics from the film and from the exhibition of the dress used in the film, and I still have no idea if my dress will be approved, also, I'm not sure if I'll be able to do it all again in case I'm told to change the fabric, mostly cause I'm a student at university, so I can't really spend that much money on something like that (I'm sure many of you have been there too).

To sum things up, I'm not trying to blame anyone, and I'm really sorry if this sounds passive-agressive at any point, as I said english is not my mother tongue and I'm trying my best to express my point of view.
The thing is, I know this is a hobby and everyone does their best to help others, but I would really appreciate if those with approved costumes, or the judges, spent a bit of their time in the WIP threads helping the ones that are trying to recreate the characters. In case my costume got accepted I'll be more than glad to help and advice anyone needing it btw.
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