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Intelligence Officers (Generic Operations Officer)
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Merc_with_a_Bryar (Sam Falco)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be inclined to agree, however in the context of the film itself, they all seem to be performing the same kind of duties. The people wearing this specific outfit are all Intelligence, and this is demonstrated by their uniform matching Cassian's almost exactly, and in the briefing toward the end, they're all gathered with the Intelligence division on one side of the display, ya know? Perhaps if more references for the jacket/pants look appear down the road, and show them in a variety of uses, we could expand the CRL, but for simplicity's sake, I still think these belong in their own class, so as not to confuse the marines or other type of Alliance Officers from other sources.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the shirt, pants, belt, waist jacket and boots are just standard clothing items for all rebels that are not pilots, technicians or members of the Alderaanian consular security. We see that private Tenzigo Weems, who is a intelligence technicians, wears everything exept the jacket. Quite a few members of the pathfinders wear the same uniform and they are special forces.

On page 53 the book Rogue One - The Unlitimate Visual Guide states about Cassian rank "pips denote rank of Captain: colour indicates Army service." On the top of page 52 it also states "alliance intelligence".

On the pages 44 and 45, which are about general Draven it also says "alliance intelligence"but he is also a member of the "alliance high command" which is indicated buy the red of his rank symbol.
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Merc_with_a_Bryar (Sam Falco)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Draven's uniform is different because of his higher rank, which is specified in the standards already. As for the others, we only see people in the Intelligence detachment wearing that uniform, so unless some other references show up, the standards include rank badges, which will distinguish them from the other types of Rebel military. If further reference for non-Intelligence personnel surface, we can write standards for that, but in the meantime, the Intelligence Officer can still be its own thing.
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Terran S (Terran Stewart)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boy this is confusing!

I suppose that it makes sense to simplify matters until/unless a greater weight of evidence is unearthed. (anyone pals with Pablo Hidalgo? heh.)

My *gut* tells me it's not just the Intel Branch, but I certainly don't think it hurts to keep things simple. At least to begin with.

PArmstr: That makes a LOT of sense. (It also corresponds with real-world analogs)
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Terran S (Terran Stewart)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I confess to being confused as to where the notion that "only" the Intel types are seen wearing the uniform is being derived.

I'm scratching my head here: In the above photos, one example is Cpl. Tonc (an NCO, not an officer incidentally) in the description attached, it plainly states that he is Infantry, not Intel. Private Basteren also wears the jacket, indicating the uniform is available to *all* ranks not just NCO and above.
In the "Debate" scene, there are individuals scattered throughout the crowd wearing the jacket at least, with no concrete indication of their Service Branch.

During the Eadu sequences, we know Gen. Draven is commanding the action, but again, I don't recall an indicator that *all* the present personnel were exclusively Intel Branch folks.

I don't understand the Higher rank-Long jacket relation. I know we see actors wearing the longer jackets with No rank (among the Techs) as well as junior and mid-level Officers (at least one Maj. {2+ grades below a General} for instance)

I want to be clear that I don't intend to be argumentative. Caveats just keep occurring to me that I think bear on the proposal.
I am certain that some of my questions are due to ignorance (Like current CRL's) But I certainly feel there's some merit to at least some of these points.

I am going to build and wear this costume no matter what it's called of course, but figure it's worth hashing out as early as possible...which sort of contradicts my earlier statements about simplicity...oops.

At any rate, I'm grateful you picked up this torch. I am surprised at the relatively slow movement to add costumes from the recent films.
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Merc_with_a_Bryar (Sam Falco)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not referring to the long jackets specifically, there are several variations on the jacket that higher-ups wear, some of which are the same jacket pattern, but with other color schemes beside the solid green/brown one that the lower Officers all seem to share. The distinction of why I feel this is Intelligence branch only is because, yes, we see people wearing them that aren't specifically stated to be Intelligence, but the people who's detachments ARE specified have all turned out to be Intelligence-based, even the commandos that Cassian tells Jyn about, they are all assassins, saboteurs, spies, etc. so I think that should fall under Intelligence and Espionage.

As for why this is an officer class, I'm not saying that ONLY officers wear them, I'm simply making standards for a generic officer class of character in this case, because that was what I was interested in. As I said previously, the existence of a "Generic Intelligence Officer" costume class would not prevent someone from making another, lower rank as well if they can get the references for it at some point, I'm simply using the references at the moment to illustrate a standard existence for the uniform in-universe, and build a CRL for this particular class that I'd like to see. As you said, the process for new costumes has been INCREDIBLY slow moving, so I just threw EVERYTHING I could find on this outfit at the wall as evidence that it has more than enough right to exist as a costume.
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Terran S (Terran Stewart)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, Thanks. I think I am understanding you a bit better.

I appreciate your comments.
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Merc_with_a_Bryar (Sam Falco)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem, I know it is all a bit confusing, so I'm happy to elaborate lol.
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RebelLady (Kristina Gundersen)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've gone through all of the R1 screen caps and pulled any of them with rebel officers. I also went through and looked at all three of the OT movies to compare officer types.

I absolutely agree that there is a new uniform variant with a couple of color options. I am not, however, convinced that this is unique to an intelligence officer class. The new uniform style is seen on communications officers, and is not limited to officers working with General Draven.

Communications officer with and without jacket:








Examples of officers in new uniform (Note: These have been enhanced to see details better so the color may be off.):



































I am also very uncomfortable with the use of trooper costumes as references. Trooper costume pieces such as the blue flak vest, marine style helmet, and rifle style blasters are pieces I do not believe we should include in an officer costume. Not only do they result in something that reads way too closely to a Scarif trooper, but we have no examples of a generic officer wearing those items. Cassian is a hero costume, and Sefla is a trooper.

In my opinion, we will need to write new costume standards for several officer costumes found in this movie- both variants on costumes we've seen in the original trilogy, and one for a Rogue One specific officer. For example: General Draven and the Captain of the Hammerhead Corvette are wearing permutations of the Echo Base officers jacket, but there are some very specific details -including topstitching (color me unsurprised) that have been added and altered from the ESB version.






Here are some group photos showing the variety of officers seen at Yavin:








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Last edited by RebelLady (Kristina Gundersen) on Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:36 am; edited 2 times in total
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Merc_with_a_Bryar (Sam Falco)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Apologies for rambling, it's all very complicated and I wanna make sure all my thoughts are clear and complete haha. I am agreeing with you though, so stick with it till the end!)

I never said that the uniforms themselves are ONLY worn by Intelligence officers, I simply was writing standards for this type of Intelligence Officer that, as you have shown, has plenty of reference, and we know the specifics of who and what they are. We have no reference for other specific types of troops using this specific uniform yet, and if any others are clarified in future material, then we can write standards for them, but with the info that we have, the Intelligence Officer class clearly exists, and does wear this uniform, as highlighted by the examples above, and the fact that Cassian Andor is one of them.

As for using Scarif troopers as reference, I wasnt intending them to be reference for this costume in particular, merely using them as an example of the differences between the marines and the officers, even though they share some articles of clothing. The marines have reinforced pants, different boots, and different mandatory accessories than the Intelligence personnel, hence they would have different standards, and would stand out from the proposed Intelligence Officers easily.

The vests and rifles being allowed very much makes sense though because, as stated, Cassian Andor is an Inteligence Officer, and he does carry an A280 CFE, uses it as a sniper rifle (and in the cut scenes from the trailers we see him using it as an assault rifle), and wears the flak vest when doing missions. Again though, the distinction is the different type of pants and boots, which the Intelligence Officers all seem to possess, Cassian included.

Regardless of whether or not there are other Trooper types who wear the outfit, the rank badges will determine the difference between them, and the standards can absolutely be amended later on if, as I said before, new material featuring other troopers wearing the uniform comes to light and clarifies their separate jobs. At this point though, we know who the Intelligence Officers are, and what their jobs entail, because we see them operating throughout the film, and Cassian spells it out in his actions and when he literally tells Jyn that they are assassins, sabateurs, etc.

I and others feel very strongly that this costume should be allowed to exist in some form, and the given information about the costume firmly placed it in the realm of Rebel Commanders, due to rank. I initially tried to do these characters as RAID expansion, but a very good case was made about why they operate in a leadership capacity, so I moved them here.

However!

All that being said, I do see your point about other officers being spotted with rank badges and the uniform, so perhaps we could simply change it to "Generic Operations Officers" or something of that sort, and the person making their character can dictate what branch they work in, etc, thereby not boxing ourselves in with the standards, should more information arise later.
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RebelLady (Kristina Gundersen)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the designation "Generic Operations Officer" would work well. Smile

I am still uncomfortable with the use of trooper costume pieces such as the blue flak vest, marine style helmet, and rifle style blasters being included in an officer costume. Not only do they result in something that reads way too closely to a Scarif trooper, but we have no examples of a generic officer wearing those items. Cassian is a hero costume, and Sefla is a trooper. Cassian also never wears the flak vest at Yavin.

I think the standards you proposed in the other thread are a good start. I have some thoughts and will post them tomorrow.
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Merc_with_a_Bryar (Sam Falco)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I actually never included the helmet in the standards, because you're right, none of the officers ever wore those, so we're on the same page abotu that haha. The only reason I included the vest was because Cassian does wear one when he's going on a mission, and he puts it on as soon as he boards the U-Wing on Yavin. Also, there's been several examples of officers wearing the vests on Star Wars Rebels, such as the Commander accompanying Mon Mothma in "Secret Cargo":



As for the rifles; I understand where you're coming from on that, I just feel that the A280 CFE rifle should be the exception, since it has the pistol-to-rifle feature. We can specify that the A280 CFE rifle is the only model allowed to be carried if that will help. That way we don't have any officers walking around with A300's or the standard A280's that the other trooper types carry. I also specified in the standards that the officer would have to carry either the pistol OR the rifle, but never both, so that the implication is that it is the same weapon, rather than two weapons. This detail would be another exclusive feature to officers, and help distinguish them from the troopers.
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Merc_with_a_Bryar (Sam Falco)
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've edited the proposed standards to reflect the input by Kristina:

-The class will now be referred to as "Generic Operations Officer" or "Generic Ops Officer", to broaden the range of the uniform. The person making the costume will decide for themselves which specific field they work in, as long as it fits within the "Army" portion of Alliance military.

-If the officer wears a flak vest, it must feature a rank badge on the left breast, in place of the comm pad, as seen in the above example from "Rebels". I also specified that the vests must be blue, as this is the only style vest we've seen the officers wear, the brown variants all being worn by troopers.

I've also removed a few items that people had objections to, and instated policies based on division choice. For example:

-The BlasTech A280 CFE and A180 CFE pistols may only be carried by an officer that has chosen to serve under Intelligence division, because we have not seen any other class of trooper or character using these pistols.

-ONLY an officer identifying as part of Intelligence may carry a rifle at all, and it MUST be the A280 or A180 Covert Field Edition in the assault or sniper configuration.

-If the officer is carrying either of the aforementioned rifles, they may not also carry a sidearm, as the sidearm and rifle are intended to be one in the same weapon.
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RebelLady (Kristina Gundersen)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for all your hard work researching these costumes, Sam. Your enthusiasm is contagious. Very Happy

As far as generic officers wearing vests in Rogue One goes, I think if you look more closely you notice that all of the vests appear on officers wearing the tan/beige jumpsuits. These officers seem to be a Rogue One variation of the the uniform worn by communications officers and at Echo Base in Empire Strikes Back. (I guess they went for variety in R1 because there are versions of the Yavin communications officer from ANH too.) The hanger technicians also appear to have a related uniform, and they are the other place we see vests being worn in Rogue One. Hanger technicians are classified as a trooper costume.

The standard for the communication officer costume can be found here:
http://newsite.rebellegion.com/hoth-officer/

The standard for the hanger technician can be found here:
http://newsite.rebellegion.com/hoth-hanger-technician-epv/

Yavin ground crew wear the jumpsuit without the vest and are also classified as part of the RAID detachment:
http://newsite.rebellegion.com/rebel-ground-crew/

We also see other costumes in Rogue One that appear to be variations of Empire Strikes Back costumes- for example the Echo Base Commanders uniform we see the captain of the Hammerhead Corvette and General Draven wearing, so it would seem the costume designer was using Echo Base as well as Yavin for inspiration. (See earlier in the thread.)

I do think this is one where there may need to be an updated standard that includes a Rogue One variation because there are some minor differences.

The image you posted from Rebels above is Mon Mothma's aide, Erskin Semaj, and I agree he looks like he is wearing something similar to the R1 flak vest. The problem is there are no instances of the vest being worn in Rogue One by a generic officer, and Erskin isn't a generic either. His uniform isn't exactly the same as Cassian's, so that wouldn't work as corroboration.

As far as the rifle goes, you run into the same problem. Cassian isn't a generic officer, and there are no examples of a generic officer using that rifle. Big guns are a trooper thing.


Propose: Yavin Operations Officer, Rouge One

Jacket:
-Coyote Brown, Medium Brown or Olive Brown heavy canvas jacket.
-Sleeves have “blood stripe” detail (printed, suede, embroidered, or similar) from shoulder to cuff. Darker brown jackets have tan stripes, and lighter brown jackets have darker brown stripes.
-Jacket has a mandarin collar with optional lines of topstitching.
-There are left and right breast pockets, with a flap on the left-hand pocket only. Pocket should have no visible securing snaps or buttons.
-Screen-accurate top stitching and pockets on the front and “action pleat” on the back of the shoulders.
-Screen-accurate compad inset above the left breast pocket.

Optional: Contrasting front yoke.

Pants:
-Khaki/Coyote Brown colored utility trousers.
-Pant ankles should be worn tucked into boots/boot toppers.

Optional: Cargo-style pockets along the outside of each leg, with top flap, and no visible closure buttons or snaps. Elastic cuffs at the ankles.

Note: I left off the bit about back pockets because the references are fuzzy, and there are at least a couple of images where it appears there may be a back welt pocket.

Shirt:
-Long sleeved, tan/beige shirt with a collar ending in two points.
-Front has a rectangular bib with seams on the bottom and both sides which (recommended) continue down to bottom of hem.
-Double rows of stitching (flat-felled or similar) in each seam is recommended.
-Optional back yoke.
-Worn tucked into the pants.

Belt:
Belt made of olive drab/khaki/camel webbing with roll-pin buckle.
Optional: silver screen-accurate “energy pellets” are attached via loops

Boots:
Dark brown leather (or leather-like) lace-up combat boots with two matching flaps covering the laces.

No visible zippers, but discrete inside zippers are permitted.

Note: We have really poor references here- it may be worth broadening the allowable boots to include any brown or black workboot without visible laces, zippers, or buckles. Boots should be below the calf.

Rank Badge:
Screen accurate rebel rank badge worn on the right side of jacket, just above breast pocket. Badge should reflect rank of the costumer's choice below General.
[/i]
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Officers are not my area of expertise at all, but I did a ton of research on Cassian Andor while writing his costume standard and building that costume with my husband, so that's the perspective I'm coming from here.

I really like the revisions proposed here by RebelLady. Having read through this whole thread, it feels like there have been a lot of assumptions made on the basis of Cassian, but this latest revision summarizes what we know about generics and, I think, makes a good case for including Generic Ops Officer as a character type.

My concern as a Cassian LCJ is that I want to make sure we are judging similar costumes consistently, and that like items are held to like standards. The Cassian Andor standard calls for some very specific details in the jacket, specifically the rows of top stitching on the collar and waistband. I am reluctant to see these made optional on very similar jackets unless we have evidence that there is a wider variety of this type of jacket seen in the Rebel Army and that some of those jackets do not have the top-stitching detail.

Here is what the Cassian Andor costume standard has to say about the jacket:
Medium brown heavy canvas jacket. Sleeves have yellow/tan “blood stripe” detail (printed, suede, embroidered, or similar) from shoulder to cuff. The jacket has a mandarin collar with 6 lines of top stitching, and the waistband also has 6 lines of top stitching. Screen-accurate top stitching and pockets on the front and “action pleat” on the back of the shoulders. Rebel captain rank badge worn on the right breast with 2 green circles. Screen-accurate compad inset above the left front pocket.

And here's a good reference:


Do we have any examples of this style of jacket without the top-stitching or the pleated detail down the lapel? If not, I would strongly suggest requiring the top-stitching and other details on the jacket that are identical across this style. (Offering the color options and contrasting front yoke is fine with me and makes perfect sense.)

To look into this, we're going to need clearer, higher-resolution reference images. https://starwarsscreencaps.com/rogue-one-2016/ is a good place to start.
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