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Smuggler standards for OCs
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Captain Solo (Evert Joosse)
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I am not very fond of all those generic Jedi either.

I think the way to go about this would be if you find a picture in source material, any source material, you should be allowed to give that costume a try. And then it should be up to the judges to see if the costume is good enough to be approved for the Rebel Legion.
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GotWookiee (Matt Pfingsten)
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Custom costumes/generic smugglers have come up again and again since the beginning of the club. The basic problem with allowing custom costumes is that everyone who advocates for including them agrees that there is such thing as "too far," i.e. no half-Wookiee, half-human Jedi with pink highlights, but no one can really explain where (and how) to draw the line.

Instead, you hear people talk about "reasonable customization" and "common sense," or even "it just needs to look like its from Star Wars," but it really comes down to everyone's subjective opinion, which is why it won't work. In the end "where do we draw the line" will be endlessly debated, and there is little to be gained from approving such costumes.

Despite claims to the contrary, generic Jedi are not custom costumes. Generics are "pseudo-uniforms" in the sense that they are based on a common design but where no two examples are exactly alike. There is a range of variation based on what is onscreen, but the range of permissible variation is quite limited compared to a truly custom costume.

It's important to understand that neither the RL nor the 501st are necessarily against custom costumes. Many members have custom costumes and most of us have many costumes from outside Star Wars and participate with other cosplay groups.

However, there is a big difference between what people will bring to a convention and what they will bring to local community events. Conventions have a great variety of costumes from many different franchises and genres, lots of very creative custom costumes, mash-ups, and parody costumes, and so on. Conventions are focused on geek culture in general and cosplayers in particular.
Conversely, community events outside the convention hall are more about entertaining the muggles, so people tend to only bring costumes and characters that are popular with the general public. Lots of Star Wars, but rarely anything from Trek, BSG, Stargate, Aliens/Predator, Game of Thrones, etc. Plenty of Disney characters, but few from anime or 80's cartoons. Lots of Marvel and DC superheroes, but no Greatest American Hero or Quail Man.

This isn't some formal rule in this club or the larger costuming and cosplay community; my local cosplay group doesn't have any rules at all regarding "permissible" costumes, it just sort of an unstated mutual understanding that everyone (mostly) seems to abide by without it ever having been stated or discussed.

Here are some past discussions that I have started, which also contain links to prior discussions before that. If you are interested in the subject you should read them:
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Captain Solo (Evert Joosse)
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I see how that would indeed open up a can of worms.

But I am sorry, I still disagree about all those generic Jedi though.

For instance, a friend of mine has a really great Twi'lek costume. But if she would want to join the RL, she would have to make a Jedi costume?

That makes no sense to me. I mean I would imagine that there would be much more Twi'leks in the fringe.
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kman ()
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Solo wrote:
Yeah, I see how that would indeed open up a can of worms.

But I am sorry, I still disagree about all those generic Jedi though.

For instance, a friend of mine has a really great Twi'lek costume. But if she would want to join the RL, she would have to make a Jedi costume?

That makes no sense to me. I mean I would imagine that there would be much more Twi'leks in the fringe.


There ARE more Twi'lek options than just Jedi, in the RL.

Jedi is essentially a uniform, just as much as Rebel Fleet troopers wear uniforms, and Rogue One Rebel SpecForces wear uniforms with many different variations, and ROTJ Endor troopers are the same. Generic characters using uniforms comprised of screen-verified pieces make perfect sense. They're instantly recognizable, and very popular with both the Legion and the general public.

Not every character is a face character.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Solo wrote:
Yeah, I see how that would indeed open up a can of worms.

But I am sorry, I still disagree about all those generic Jedi though.

Why, exactly?

It really comes down to what's on screen (as well as canon/legends). A common design for the standard Jedi pseudo-uniform exists on screen; tons of Jedi in the prequels are wearing costumes based on the same design with small variations between them. There are statements by the costume design crew that they had their own guidelines when creating those background Jedi.

The only other generic costume is a generic Wookiee, and again that is confined to the variations we see in canon.

The same can't really be said for Twi'Lek's. There are lots of them, but beyond the lekku, ears and head gear, there doesn't seem to be any common elements between the various costumes.

Captain Solo wrote:
For instance, a friend of mine has a really great Twi'lek costume. But if she would want to join the RL, she would have to make a Jedi costume?

Or a pilot, or a variety of other costumes that Twi'Lek's have worn in the SW canon or legends.

Captain Solo wrote:
That makes no sense to me. I mean I would imagine that there would be much more Twi'leks in the fringe.

Well, how do you think it should work? What would make sense to you?

You see the problem is we can't make decisions based on personal anecdotes and individual cases. We used to do things that way. I used to be the sole arbiter for what was admissible as far as costumes go. We did't have any rules then. No charter, no standards; I just used my common sense and best judgement.

But the club kept growing and soon other people needed to jump in to handle the workload. Pretty soon people started asking questions about why some costumes got approved and others didn't. Today we have have nearly 4,400 members with over 10,000 costumes, organized into 84 bases and outposts spread across 51 countries on 6 continents. We've got over 50 people on the costume judge team, and the standards themselves are written and decided by even more people.

We want to be consistent and fair. Everyone should be judged the same no matter when or where they join and no matter who is judging them. We want to avoid a system where your ability to join is largely dependent on who happens to review your application and when they happen to do it, or where you happen to live.

Sounds like a great idea, right? But how do you do that?

One option would be to simply accept everything and have no real standards at all. Everything from perfect screen accurate replicas of Oola and Ayla Secura to invented alien species, Star Wars/my little pony mash-ups and everything in between.
However, past discussions and polls have shown that few are really asking for that option. Your friend's costume would be admissible under those circumstances.

You could do what the Big Three (501st, RL, and Mando Mercs) do; stick to established costumes from the licensed Star Wars media for official approvals, and let custom costumes be an informal thing left to up local discretion as far as trooping at events.
Prior discussions have established that this is the most popular option, but your friend's costume isn't admissible for membership under this system.

The third option is somewhere in the middle; allow some custom costumes but draw a line somewhere. So far no one has come up with a workable solution, and I've argued that it is impossible to do so.
All that anyone advocating for this has ever done is talk about personal anecdotes (their friend's costume, their costume, etc.) and offer vague and simplistic solutions about "using some common sense," and "being reasonable," etc. No one has ever attempted to write a charter amendment or a CRL/Standard.

Captain Solo wrote:
I think the way to go about this would be if you find a picture in source material, any source material, you should be allowed to give that costume a try. And then it should be up to the judges to see if the costume is good enough to be approved for the Rebel Legion.


Evert, with your solution I can't tell what you're actually advocating. We already allow replica costumes from from all licensed material. If you're suggesting we permit costumes that are improvisations based on licensed designs, how far does the customization go?
The second part of your solution seems to be just leaving it up the judges instincts. How would you ensure consistency and fairness?

Evert, my advice is to be the change you want to see. Want generic Twi'Lek's in the Legion? Write up a CRL/Standard for it.
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Captain Solo (Evert Joosse)
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, first of all I would like to address the generic Jedi look. I for one do not believe that it is some kind of uniform. I believe that is the way that ordinary people dress in the Star Wars universe. Just look at the Erso family at the beginning of Rogue One, or people like Owen and Beru Lars.
The only thing that differs between the way they look and the generic Jedi look, is the lightsaber.
Therefore somebody who would look like that but carries a blaster in stead, following that same logic, could be a generic smuggler, or thug or outlaw, or just regular farmer, moisture or otherwise.
I am sure you agree with me that that would not make much sense. But the question I am really asking here is why a generic Jedi can get approved and a generic moisture farmer can not? Arguably there were a lot more moisture farmers in the Universe than there were Jedi.
Because of the rarity of the Jedi, even in the days of the Old Republic, I personally feel that every Jedi should be a face character. An unpopular opinion I am sure, and one that I am in no way trying to get enforced. But my point is that while there seems to be an unending supply of faceless Troopers, there was never an unending supply of Jedi. However when I look at the pictures of troops there always seems to be an overwhelming amount of frikkin lightsabers.
But anyway, where I am going with this, is that fringers (smugglers, gamblers, outlaws, rebel supporters call them what you like) would probably look like regular people too. I mean, let’s face it, smugglers would never be successful if they all dressed like the Beagle boys.
What I would hope for are more costumes for ‘regular’ people. That is why Willrow Hood is such a popular costume. Just a regular guy from Cloud City, taking his ice machine for a walk.
You see I believe the defining characteristic of a costume should be where the character is from. A guy from Tatooine looks different than a guy from Coruscant. So my proposal would be for generic Tatooinian, Coruscani or Corellian costumes.
This in my opinion would apply to humans as well as Twi’leks or Mon Calamari or Gammoreans.
The way I think you could go about this, would be for the person applying with the costume to provide one or preferably multiple pictures of one of the costumes from any of the Star Wars source material. And then it would be up to the costume judges to decide if the costume provided by the applicant looks sufficiently like the pictures from the source material.
I realize that in doing that you would have to place a lot of trust in your costume judges. But on the other hand, if you can’t trust your costume judges to judge costumes…
I for one would love to make like a generic Corellian costume based on the kid they pull out of the line in Solo.
But anyway, once the general look is established, people can dream up any career for their characters. Thief, spy, smuggler, gambler, guy who cleans out the toilets… It would not really matter. As long as the look is established, people can act out their character to their hearts desire as far as I am concerned.
That way people would have a lot more freedom, within the guidelines, and it would encourage them to think about the background of who they are portraying and I hope also encourage them to interact more with the people around them.
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Captain Solo (Evert Joosse)
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your response

kman wrote:


There ARE more Twi'lek options than just Jedi, in the RL..


But as I understand it if you want to go for a fringe option you are mostly stuck with dancing girl, and not everybody wants to do that.

Some people for instance prefer to sing...

kman wrote:
Jedi is essentially a uniform.


That is something I disagree with you on. I went in to that in my post above, so I won't bore you with that again.

kman wrote:
Not every character is a face character.


But that is exactly what I am trying to say.

My apologies if I didn't make myself clear in that.

I do think that every costume deserves as much attention as a face character. At least from the person wearing the costume.
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Captain Solo (Evert Joosse)
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you as well for your elaborate response.

GotWookiee wrote:
Captain Solo wrote:
Yeah, I see how that would indeed open up a can of worms.

But I am sorry, I still disagree about all those generic Jedi though.

Why, exactly?


I hope that I was able to explain this in my message above.

GotWookiee wrote:

It really comes down to what's on screen (as well as canon/legends). A common design for the standard Jedi pseudo-uniform exists on screen; tons of Jedi in the prequels are wearing costumes based on the same design with small variations between them. There are statements by the costume design crew that they had their own guidelines when creating those background Jedi.


Indeed, but there are also plenty of sources stating that the Jedi look like the general public.

GotWookiee wrote:
The only other generic costume is a generic Wookiee, and again that is confined to the variations we see in canon.


What I would like to see is a possibility to enact civilian characters of any race we see in the Star Wars universe. I know there will never be enough people to act out all of this, but I think it would be nice to give people the opportunity to go for that.

GotWookiee wrote:
The same can't really be said for Twi'Lek's. There are lots of them, but beyond the lekku, ears and head gear, there doesn't seem to be any common elements between the various costumes.


Indeed. I was just using my friends Twi’lek as an example. I am not fighting for the Twi’lek cause, so to speak, just trying to get the possibility for people to create civilians, from any race within the Star Wars universe they like.

GotWookiee wrote:
Captain Solo wrote:
For instance, a friend of mine has a really great Twi'lek costume. But if she would want to join the RL, she would have to make a Jedi costume?

Or a pilot, or a variety of other costumes that Twi'Lek's have worn in the SW canon or legends.

There have been many civilian Twi’leks in canon or legends, but it appears that there is no option for that. And again, not just talking about Twi’leks here.

GotWookiee wrote:
Captain Solo wrote:
That makes no sense to me. I mean I would imagine that there would be much more Twi'leks in the fringe.

Well, how do you think it should work? What would make sense to you?

As I tried to describe in my post above. The ability to create a civilian based on the planet he or she is on. Regardless of race.

GotWookiee wrote:
You see the problem is we can't make decisions based on personal anecdotes and individual cases. We used to do things that way. I used to be the sole arbiter for what was admissible as far as costumes go. We did't have any rules then. No charter, no standards; I just used my common sense and best judgement.


I understand.

GotWookiee wrote:
But the club kept growing and soon other people needed to jump in to handle the workload. Pretty soon people started asking questions about why some costumes got approved and others didn't. Today we have have nearly 4,400 members with over 10,000 costumes, organized into 84 bases and outposts spread across 51 countries on 6 continents. We've got over 50 people on the costume judge team, and the standards themselves are written and decided by even more people.
We want to be consistent and fair. Everyone should be judged the same no matter when or where they join and no matter who is judging them. We want to avoid a system where your ability to join is largely dependent on who happens to review your application and when they happen to do it, or where you happen to live.

I see how that could be a problem. But I believe that in a situation like this it is always going to be a subjective decision.
Which is why I would propose to lay the burden of evidence, so to speak, with the person applying with their costume. The judges would only have to judge if it looks like the provided source material.
GotWookiee wrote:

One option would be to simply accept everything and have no real standards at all. Everything from perfect screen accurate replicas of Oola and Ayla Secura to invented alien species, Star Wars/my little pony mash-ups and everything in between.
However, past discussions and polls have shown that few are really asking for that option. Your friend's costume would be admissible under those circumstances.


I get how that would open the Floodgates.
GotWookiee wrote:

You could do what the Big Three (501st, RL, and Mando Mercs) do; stick to established costumes from the licensed Star Wars media for official approvals, and let custom costumes be an informal thing left to up local discretion as far as trooping at events.
Prior discussions have established that this is the most popular option, but your friend's costume isn't admissible for membership under this system.


As well as a lot of other costumes would not be. I am thinking of these costumes the way that Kenner thought of the mini rigs. The ones that you just didn’t see because they were just offscreen.
GotWookiee wrote:

The third option is somewhere in the middle; allow some custom costumes but draw a line somewhere. So far no one has come up with a workable solution, and I've argued that it is impossible to do so.

I guess this would be the option that I am making my suggestion for.
GotWookiee wrote:

All that anyone advocating for this has ever done is talk about personal anecdotes (their friend's costume, their costume, etc.) and offer vague and simplistic solutions about "using some common sense," and "being reasonable," etc. No one has ever attempted to write a charter amendment or a CRL/Standard.

I was just using my friend as an example.
If the way I proposed would not be considered suitable I guess I would start with writing a couple of these, for denizens of a planet, regardless of race.

GotWookiee wrote:

Evert, with your solution I can't tell what you're actually advocating. We already allow replica costumes from from all licensed material. If you're suggesting we permit costumes that are improvisations based on licensed designs, how far does the customization go?


I hope that I have succeeded in explaining this.

GotWookiee wrote:

The second part of your solution seems to be just leaving it up the judges instincts. How would you ensure consistency and fairness?

By laying the burden of evidence with the person applying for the costume.

GotWookiee wrote:

Evert, my advice is to be the change you want to see. Want generic Twi'Lek's in the Legion? Write up a CRL/Standard for it.

Thank you very much for your insight and your suggestions.
I will see how people respond to the general idea and if it isn’t accepted, as I well understand it probably won’t be, I think I will indeed look into writing some, non race specific Fringe CRL’s.
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Doomsdaydanie ()
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So this brings up a question I have.

My question is more along the lines of custom smugglers and characters in other SW media that is paid for and supported by fans, but isn't necessarily endorsed by LFL and Disney. I watch an RPG called Pencils & Parsecs on HyperRPG, a fan supported channel on Twitch and there is a character in it that I am currently workin on a costume for. There are reference photos of the official artwork as well as the actress herself and I would love to make it an official costume, but it would probably fall along the same lines as a custom or generic smuggler.

Would this even be possible to get approval or is it literally just wishful thinking on my part?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doomsdaydanie wrote:
So this brings up a question I have.

My question is more along the lines of custom smugglers and characters in other SW media that is paid for and supported by fans, but isn't necessarily endorsed by LFL and Disney. I watch an RPG called Pencils & Parsecs on HyperRPG, a fan supported channel on Twitch and there is a character in it that I am currently workin on a costume for. There are reference photos of the official artwork as well as the actress herself and I would love to make it an official costume, but it would probably fall along the same lines as a custom or generic smuggler.

Would this even be possible to get approval or is it literally just wishful thinking on my part?


Unfortunately the RL only takes characters and costumes from licensed materials. Even though the RPG is produced it's still more along the lines of fan produced art/media. We don't allow costumes based on fan art and this would be the same type of thing.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ladysolo14 wrote:
Doomsdaydanie wrote:
So this brings up a question I have.

My question is more along the lines of custom smugglers and characters in other SW media that is paid for and supported by fans, but isn't necessarily endorsed by LFL and Disney. I watch an RPG called Pencils & Parsecs on HyperRPG, a fan supported channel on Twitch and there is a character in it that I am currently workin on a costume for. There are reference photos of the official artwork as well as the actress herself and I would love to make it an official costume, but it would probably fall along the same lines as a custom or generic smuggler.

Would this even be possible to get approval or is it literally just wishful thinking on my part?


Unfortunately the RL only takes characters and costumes from licensed materials. Even though the RPG is produced it's still more along the lines of fan produced art/media. We don't allow costumes based on fan art and this would be the same type of thing.


This is what I assumed but dang what a missed opportunity! I'm still going to do it of course, and completely to the artists rendition, but it does stink that it can never be approvable.
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