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[NEW] CS Proposal: General Leia, TROS -DISCUSSION
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doinit4carrie (Amy Young)
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:52 pm    Post subject: Re: armhole pleats or seams Reply with quote

I understand what you are saying and that does make sense, but believe me, they aren't pleats. The front of the garment is also not as thick. Extra padding on the back for the big billowy look.

[quote="RogueWic"]The reason I think they are pleats is because the princess seams running down the front of the waistcoat don't look as deep. If the appearance is from the thickness of the fashion fabric and lining, it would be deep on the front as well. It also looks more like a pleat on JenEyre's first photo under the place on the standards where Optional is listed.[/quote]
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LaV317 (LaVonne)
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off, such great work you have all done on these standards. Wonderful research, notes, and a great number of reference photos!! Outstanding, everyone!

The reason for my post is in regards to the pleat conversation. Is this the pleat in question, what I have annotated in these three photos?





Thank you, all!
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:11 am    Post subject: To pleat or not to pleat Reply with quote

Yes. That is the pleat I was referring to.
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doinit4carrie (Amy Young)
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that is what is being questioned. It is definitely not a pleat. I've seen the costume in person, in regular lighting, inches from my face. It's just a seam that has depth to it because the material at the back is thicker and it was not pressed. See this photo. It shows the top where the seam starts. The seam you marked is just to the right starting at the back of the arm(pit)



https://i.imgur.com/3qPtH9x.jpg

LaV317 wrote:
First off, such great work you have all done on these standards. Wonderful research, notes, and a great number of reference photos!! Outstanding, everyone!

The reason for my post is in regards to the pleat conversation. Is this the pleat in question, what I have annotated in these three photos?





Thank you, all!
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doinit4carrie (Amy Young)
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here a few more pics to try to show how it's not another pleat. Sorry I don't have a straight-on back shot. (The display case was right against the wall and ILM had just started to lock down due to COVID, so I was on my own and couldn't get assistance.)
Left side, 2nd from arm...






Right side, 2nd from arm...
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doinit4carrie (Amy Young)
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe if you look at those pics in the last post where it shows both sides, you will see that what looks like a pleat is because of shadowing from the dark lighting. On the side with direct lighting and sunlight, you can see it's just a seam.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent work on the precision and clarity of the standards.

A couple of small things:

You use "should be" a couple of times in there, and the LMO is pretty strongly against that. You'll want to change those instances to "are" or "is."

You may want to add something in the optional section for the hair along the lines of "If a wig or extensions are used, they should be high quality and look like hair." That may save the judges from the headaches of poor quality wigs or mismatched extensions.

As to the color debate, what about something along the lines of "Slate gray fabric, blue or purple undertones recommended"? That would give a range of acceptable colors to deal with how the costume looks in person vs. on screen, both of which are "accurate" for different reasons.

As to the pleats debate, looking at all the photos from both exhibits here (and having pressed my face to the glass at the premier to stare down the details), it really seems to me that the difference is that the under-arm and center-back pleats are box pleats. The side-back pleats are knife pleats. They don't have as much fullness and sometimes blend into the shape of the back (and they might not even be that deep).
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good suggestion for the wig.

And yes, the wording needs to be nailed down. I use the wrong terminology at times, but I hope my meaning is understood. THEN the expert writing the CRL can correct it.

I agree there should be color ranges for these items to allow for anyone to find fabric available to them. But I really disagree with the cloak being in the blue range. I don't see it looking blue in any screenshots. I see silver, grey, purple, brown tones. (Is this like the blue dress, white dress debate? Laughing )

Back to the pleats. Here again, I may be using the term incorrectly. I understand a pleat to be created by sewing a few inches of folded fabric over itself to create the fold or billowing below. In that sense, there really is only one pleat on each side, under the arm, and one big one in the center back. I refer back to these photos below with notes.


HOWEVER, maybe my use of the word "seam" is incorrect. Usually, a seam is created by joining 2 pieces of material together. The back piece looks like it could be one cut all the way around to the side. The "seams" would then be created by pinching the fabric together(about an inch) and sewing all the way down instead of just a few inches which would create a pleat, as it does in the middle and the side, under the arm.
OR if we think it's not one big cut, then perhaps it is material folded over itself, but tacked down all the way to the bottom of the cloak.
This is what they did with the back edge of the side pleat. It is tacked down all the way to the bottom. (This may be the most likely after re-examining the closeup photos.)



I experimented with a stiff, thick quilt I have and saw the same effect I saw when examining the costume in person.




OR, if they are separate pieces with a pleat edge, but tacked down the entire way to the bottom.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/MqAZrCD.jpg?1[/img]


Thanks for reading through my thought process. What do you think of the last option?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice to see this proposal. Smile

I have some suggestions/corrections to add.

- Definitely agree with the 'burgundy, plum, dark mauve' color scheme for the tunic and pants. Eggplant seems way too blue-ish for these items.
- I think it might be good to add in the two stomach seams and the waist seam on the tunic under optionals. I know the belt will mostly hide them, but I still think it would be good to have them listed. Then people can choose to do them or not.
- The sleeves ends above the wrists rather than at the wrists. The current wording would create too long sleeves. (I'd say about 1/3 of the length of the underarm from the wrist).
- Armhole should be armscye instead. It's literally what's it's called and should translate much better. Smile
- I do not see any princess seams on the front, just regular seams going from the shoulder and all the way down. In my understanding a princess seam is curved over the breasts/shoulders and I just don't see that curving in the references. (There may be some slight curving, but it doesn't seem enough to call it a princess seam).
- There have snuck a 'tunic' in under the waistcoat/vest description. Wink
- Both belt and boots have wrong measurements where the imperial and metric listings does not match up. 1 inch is approximately 2.5 cm. I'd write 1½ " / 3.5 cm (or 4 cm if you prefer to round up).
- Speaking of how to write measurements I'd like to write all measurements like this: '1-2 " / 2.5-5 cm' or '1-2 inches / 2.5-5 centimeters'. (Okay, I much prefer cm). Writing the metric measurements in parenthesis makes the standard seem very imperial-centric and most of the world does not use imperial, but metric. I think it would fit better for an international organization like Rebel Legion to write the measurements equally. Smile

As for the coat/vest it's a tough one. The color does seem to change a lot depending on the lighting, which makes it hard to describe. Hmm. The main color seems to be gray-ish-brown-ish with a purple-blue undertone. ?? Maybe like a really dark taupe with a purple-blue undertone? Would that work as a description of this impossible color?
As for those side-back seams/pleats I can see the argument for doing it both ways. Either as a regular, un-pressed seam with batting and everything caught in it, or as a tight, closed knife pleat running all the way down.
Honestly, without having seen this in person I'm not sure I can rule either one out. I do know Jenna knows more about pleats than me though and that she has seen it in person, too. Would it be possible to allow both options and maybe changing it in the future when we have more/better references of it?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great and helpful notes Lora!

Re: tunic stomach seams. My understanding from LFL and seeing it up close is that these tucks were not meant to be seen and were put in after the tunic was made.

Re: Dark taupe for the cloak. I hadn't thought of taupe. It would have to be so dark that it would be brown though. I agree with the suggestion of allowing a range from silver to dark greys to brownish-purple.

It's coming together!
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple of quick notes.

I've asked a couple of people to do color pulls for us to help with those questions. Let's put a pin in the color discussion until we have those to work with. A range will likely be our best bet.

I also sent the references and this thread to my friend who is a working (well, up until the covid times), union, professional industry tailor and asked for her thoughts. Her assessment is that there is a single inverted box pleat at the bottom center of the armscye that is sewn shut, opening at about the hip. She also noted the LFL display did look like there is a stitched inverted box pleat at the top of the center back seam. It is also visible on the screen caps, but less so on the LA display pictures. Is this something we want to make optional? The rest of construction looked like seams where the seam allowance had been pressed to one side. The pressing would have essentially smooshed the fabric on one side of the seam creating the illusion of depth. This meshes with Amy's observations. My friend pointed out grain line, shadows, and the hem in addition to the seams themselves. Thoughts?

SongofAmazon wrote:
Excellent work on the precision and clarity of the standards.

A couple of small things:

You use "should be" a couple of times in there, and the LMO is pretty strongly against that. You'll want to change those instances to "are" or "is."

You may want to add something in the optional section for the hair along the lines of "If a wig or extensions are used, they should be high quality and look like hair." That may save the judges from the headaches of poor quality wigs or mismatched extensions.


Jenna, good catch- I'll make sure the should be's are changed, and add the bit about the hair.

Lora Skywalker wrote:
- I think it might be good to add in the two stomach seams and the waist seam on the tunic under optionals. I know the belt will mostly hide them, but I still think it would be good to have them listed. Then people can choose to do them or not.


Agree, I'll add that.

Lora Skywalker wrote:
- The sleeves ends above the wrists rather than at the wrists. The current wording would create too long sleeves. (I'd say about 1/3 of the length of the underarm from the wrist).


The sleeve is wrist length, but the ruching pulls it to almost a 3/4 sleeve. You are right, that wording should be clarified. Smile

Lora Skywalker wrote:
- Armhole should be armscye instead. It's literally what's it's called and should translate much better. Smile


Yup agree. Usually I use armscye, that must have been a copy/paste.


Lora Skywalker wrote:
- I do not see any princess seams on the front, just regular seams going from the shoulder and all the way down. In my understanding a princess seam is curved over the breasts/shoulders and I just don't see that curving in the references. (There may be some slight curving, but it doesn't seem enough to call it a princess seam).


I think the idea of there being a princess like seam comes from the shaping visible in the images below. The logic being that princess seams are basically integrated bust darts, so the seam could have been drafted using dart manipulation with the dart coming from the neck across the shoulder. (The seams don't come from the shoulder, but rather the collar- it's what creates the modified all in one collar.)



I marked the seam in teal here, and added a lavender line to show where the vertical is:




I've spent most of yesterday going through all of the references- both screenshots and exhibit photos specifically looking at that seam. Amy helped clarify a couple of things she saw, and sent a left side view picture (see below). I think you are correct that the shaping on the overbust seam is subtle and doesn't really come close enough to the bust apex to call it a princess seam. I'll rework the wording there a bit to reflect that. To me, it looks like the shoulder seam sits at an angle, sloping downwards to the shoulder from the neck. The outer front panel wraps over the shoulder to meet it which helps create some of the shaping.

Left Side View:






Lora Skywalker wrote:
- There have snuck a 'tunic' in under the waistcoat/vest description. Wink


Thank you for catching that.

Lora Skywalker wrote:
- Both belt and boots have wrong measurements where the imperial and metric listings does not match up. 1 inch is approximately 2.5 cm. I'd write 1½ " / 3.5 cm (or 4 cm if you prefer to round up).


Good catch- it was super late by the time I got to these conversions. Thank you. Smile

Lora Skywalker wrote:
- Speaking of how to write measurements I'd like to write all measurements like this: '1-2 " / 2.5-5 cm' or '1-2 inches / 2.5-5 centimeters'. (Okay, I much prefer cm). Writing the metric measurements in parenthesis makes the standard seem very imperial-centric and most of the world does not use imperial, but metric. I think it would fit better for an international organization like Rebel Legion to write the measurements equally. Smile


The parenthesis are how we are formatting ours. Imperial units are more commonly expressed as fractions rather than decimals, and adding an additional backslash adds confusion unnecessarily. Clarity is more important. In most of the other standards, we put the imperial units of measurement in the parenthesis. We can do the same here.

I'll try and get a second draft up today.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great updates. Thanks. I'm glad your friend agrees with the pleat configuration and numbers I saw. 1 big one at the back, 1 on each side under the arm. I like the clear labels and drawing you did on my photo. That helps a lot!
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No worries. Smile We'll see what comes of the color pulls before discussion that further. Smile
Just throwing in my two cents.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anya (instarlight) is awesome and did these color pulls for us today. (The messy collage and mismatched box size is all on me though. Mea culpa. I can fix it in a bit, but have to get some other things done today and wanted to get this up ASAP.)

I think the screen-used (animated/CGI enhanced) version is what more people will recognize, so the only thing I feel super strongly about is making sure the range of color included in the standard include those colors. I'm ok also including the LFL display colors, although personally, I think those are much lighter than is ideal. What are everyone's thoughts on the wording for naming these colors?




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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These are great. I agree we should do more screen-used colors because that is what people will recognize.
The tunic color looks so odd in still camera shots. In-person, no artificial lighting it is the red burgundy you see in the screenshot below.
I would like to suggest the darker tone on that card lean more to red burgundy.It is really the only brighter, richer color in her outfit.

I think the grey tones are perfect!

Question: Why does the card say "animated costume in film"? That is a real costume that was worn.
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