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ROTJ Colonel Cracken Costume Discussion and Reference Thread
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PArmstr (Patricia Armstrong-Krauss)
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terran is correct the leather pouch from the ERTs and Gunner is the Spanish Mauser pouch.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/spanish-mauser-leather-ammo-pouch-7mm-410158950

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/spanish-mauser-leather-ammo-pouches-497168012


The Romanian Mauser pouch or the Yugoslavian Mauser pouch would probably also work.


Romanian Mauser pouch
https://www.libertytreecollectors.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=1680



Yugoslavian Mauser pouch
https://www.libertytreecollectors.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=11709

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PArmstr (Patricia Armstrong-Krauss)
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the boxy pouch that Lt Blount wears closest to the belt buckle is an Alice first aid kit pouch. I already mentioned the one behind it in my other post.



https://www.ebay.de/itm/331295226771

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ID10T (Jim)



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah! They didn't have any like those in stock today, but you may be right!
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G'nott sH'urr (David Campbell)
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, heres my two cents;

Are we finished with the discussion on the suits/ jackets?


MOLLE Pouches werent invented yet in 1983. The costume designers used what they had at hand.

Also, and please bear with me, why are we using game designs for Troopers? That part is losing me.

I have watched the Lost Rebels video at least a dozen times this morning, and I am not convinced the Trooper on the kneeling on the floor is Lt. Blount. The face does not match up for me. But in the end it really doesnt matter as we can name a character to be what we need if enough refernces line up.

Additionally, after reviewing the hallway scatter scene several times, I find no evidence of straps on the gaiters.

When I was judged two years ago, I was told that the pouches I needed to buy were cotton M14 pouches and that I needed to add the greeblie below the closure. I was also told to get a sam brown pouch for what is seen on the right hip, and I got one of those recently. I still have the Email if that is something we need to add to this.
At the time I went and purchased several of the old cotton short M14 pouches, created and cast the greeblie. The judge sent me a link to the greeblie where you can purchase it on Etsy, but I made my own. Thats linked below.
More images:

Kneeling with the twisted gaiter. The clip should be at the front inside of the shin. At the 9:37 mark we see them running facing camera down the hall, and by this time the right leg gaiter has already twisted to where the clip is rotated outboard on the calf. The left leg clip i still facing forward. When this piece of film was shot, all clips were oriented outboard, but in the promo of Cracken standing against the blue screen they are inboard. Production and costuming differences between film (which we never actually SEE) and promo pics.

I dont see any straps here, looking at the bottom of the shoe and up into the gaiter.


Here is the Sallustan trooper, with the two pointed collar. Either he pants and shirt match closely, or the jumpsuit has a collar, one of the two. It may be a jumpsuit, with the band under the belt, or the pants and jacket join and are hidden by the belt.

There are different configurations, this is a Swiss pouch, a Sam brown is similar, but has its differences.





For reference here is a tan jumpsuit with a collar, its not as "light" as the suit the Sallustan wears
https://tinyurl.com/4hr4vvj3
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Last edited by G'nott sH'urr (David Campbell) on Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:17 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PArmstr (Patricia Armstrong-Krauss)
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used the game graphics to show the details of the cylindrical pouch and the boxy leather pouches because the makers of the game made 3D scans of original ERT and Gunner items from the Lucas Film achives. The details will help people to find good sources for the items. Because of the details we know that the boxy leather pouches were Spanish Mauser leather ammo pouches. We also know that the cylindrical pouch is some kind of lens case. The games helped us estimate the measuresment so that people can replicate them if they want to use them. We should use all secondy sources that can help us. So if we use the costume book then we can also use the images from the EA Star Wars Battlefront games because the images are scans from original items used in the movies.
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Approved costumes: Jawa, RFT ANH, SIT, RV, female DRT, R1 SO A, YOO, YOT, 2 SMs
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PArmstr (Patricia Armstrong-Krauss)
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G'nott sH'urr wrote:

Additionally, after reviewing the hallway scatter scene several times, I find no evidence of straps on the gaiters.


Yes, there are straps an the gaiters and they are very visible. Did you watch the clips on the best graphic settings?






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Duty Officer of Crystal Command Yavin (German Base Yavin)

Approved costumes: Jawa, RFT ANH, SIT, RV, female DRT, R1 SO A, YOO, YOT, 2 SMs
WIPs: TRS, female BRT
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RebelLady (Kristina Gundersen)
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G'nott sH'urr wrote:
Ok, heres my two cents;

Are we finished with the discussion on the suits/ jackets?


I think the jumpsuits and vests we are in general agreement on?

G'nott sH'urr wrote:
MOLLE Pouches werent invented yet in 1983. The costume designers used what they had at hand.


Absolutely agreed that the MOLLE pouches were not in use when ROTJ was filmed. Smile Beyond that, though, looking at the characteristics of the pouches is the most important part. Military surplus options eventually dry up, and the availability/affordability of those items is not necessarily the same globally. What we need to do is identify approximate dimensions, and the important characteristics (such as shape, closures, and materials) of the pouches. That way they can be reproduced or suitably similar pouches substituted. Identifying the exact pouches used is helpful, but secondary.

Sidenote: There seems to be a general assumption of real world gun and military equipment terms. While many members may be familiar with these terms, not everyone is going to be. I'm working on a glossary/resource post for these terms and will link it here when I have finished the first draft, and would love input/help building that resource!

We really only need to worry about the pouches seen on Blount and Cracken because those are our officer costumes. The other characters would be covered under RAID's Endor Gunner standard. There are only a few people on the Falcon so creating a second generic standard doesn't seem to make sense in this instance.

G'nott sH'urr wrote:
Also, and please bear with me, why are we using game designs for Troopers? That part is losing me.


This part is tricky. As Patricia mentioned, the EA/DICE team used pretty groundbreaking technology when creating Battlefront. It's actual super cool.
Photogrammetry is a technique that allowed them to use photographs in combination with computer algorithms to create 3D models of game elements. It was used mostly to create the environments, but they also used it to create 3D models of screen used props and costume pieces from the archives.

This is where we get to the tricky part- those models served as the base layer, but traditional modeling techniques, as well as, artistic choices such as colors are used in combination with that base to create the finished product you see in the game. Things have been tweaked and altered to make them work in the game- areas where the model didn't render well filled in, etc.

I think in the case of, for example, Cracken's pouch with the rounded edges we can use as as a likely possibility of an in-universe pouch that works with the reference we have. As Patricia mentioned, it's helpful for things like measurements. Comparing Cracken's pouch to the one Patricia shared from her Battlefront caps, the lid and the curve on the game render look very much like the screen references. However, because we don't have a full view of the pouch from the screen caps, if someone had another pouch that looked similar but was a slightly different shape or size than the Battlefront example- say one that was more oblong than cylindrical- that would need to be acceptable as well. In places where the references are not cut and dry, wiggle room should be included. Also note, Blount wears a boxy pouch when he is at the guns.

Here's a bit about the photogrammetry process if anyone wants to geek out. It really is pretty neat!
https://3dscanexpert.com/3d-scanning-star-wars-battlefront/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_WaqCBp9zo

G'nott sH'urr wrote:
I have watched the Lost Rebels video at least a dozen times this morning, and I am not convinced the Trooper on the kneeling on the floor is Lt. Blount. The face does not match up for me. But in the end it really doesnt matter as we can name a character to be what we need if enough refernces line up.


I so feel your pain! I watched those clips soooo many times. Both Cracken and Blount look very different with the helmet and cap on. I did google searches using the actor's names and looked at the photos they used for autographs for comparison because it was making me a bit batty. Look in particular at the shape of his nostrils. (Is that a sentence I actually just typed?)



Here's Trevor Butterfield's autograph site:
https://scifisignersunited.weebly.com/trevor-butterfields-autograph-shop.html

G'nott sH'urr wrote:
Additionally, after reviewing the hallway scatter scene several times, I find no evidence of straps on the gaiters.

Kneeling with the twisted gaiter. The clip should be at the front inside of the shin. At the 9:37 mark we see them running facing camera down the hall, and by this time the right leg gaiter has already twisted to where the clip is rotated outboard on the calf. The left leg clip i still facing forward. When this piece of film was shot, all clips were oriented outboard, but in the promo of Cracken standing against the blue screen they are inboard. Production and costuming differences between film (which we never actually SEE) and promo pics.

I dont see any straps here, looking at the bottom of the shoe and up into the gaiter.


First the clips- as you noted in the footage all of them are on the outer edges and in the image from the role playing game/promo still they are on the inside. However, the seams remain consistently placed. I'm not entirely convinced the clips being worn in different places indicates the gaiter twisted while being worn. That aside, if you look at what I suggested, it was allowing elastic straps as an optional detail based on the image in the stairwell. This would give people the choice to add them if it made wearing their costume easier and is a small thing that doesn't really impact the presentation of the costume.

G'nott sH'urr wrote:
Here is the Sallustan trooper, with the two pointed collar. Either he pants and shirt match closely, or the jumpsuit has a collar, one of the two. It may be a jumpsuit, with the band under the belt, or the pants and jacket join and are hidden by the belt.


Based on the tush and the way the pant portion is sitting, I would say it is a jumpsuit. The point is moot here, however, as he would fall under the RAID standard for Endor Gunner.
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PArmstr (Patricia Armstrong-Krauss)
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RebelLady wrote:


G'nott sH'urr wrote:
MOLLE Pouches werent invented yet in 1983. The costume designers used what they had at hand.


Absolutely agreed that the MOLLE pouches were not in use when ROTJ was filmed. Smile Beyond that, though, looking at the characteristics of the pouches is the most important part. Military surplus options eventually dry up, and the availability/affordability of those items is not necessarily the same globally. What we need to do is identify approximate dimensions, and the important characteristics (such as shape, closures, and materials) of the pouches. That way they can be reproduced or suitably similar pouches substituted. Identifying the exact pouches used is helpful, but secondary.



I agree with Kristina. It is essential to know as much as possible about the pouches and other items so that we can replicate them if necessary. For instance, I often cannot get certain things because they are not available anymore or so expensive that it makes more sense to learn how to make them than purchase them for the price the sellers are asking for.
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G'nott sH'urr (David Campbell)
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so after a week with no power I am back online.
Ive read back through, pouches have been discussed, what is the next step? I claim ignorance on what pouch is worn by what person.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G'nott sH'urr wrote:
Ok, so after a week with no power I am back online.
Ive read back through, pouches have been discussed, what is the next step? I claim ignorance on what pouch is worn by what person.


So glad you have your power back!!

As far as next steps go...

I think we need to have an idea of at least a general description of the pouches. Ranges of size, shape, etc. A range that allows for flexibility is fine, but we need some sort of consensus on general description.

After that, I think we may be ready to move to the standards proposal thread and work on first drafts of the standards.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A big part of what makes this difficult is the randomness of the costumes.

By that I mean: the uniforms are not uniform. Not every (insert character) has the exact same equipment in the same configuration. I think the RFT is about as close to uniform as you find.

And, if I can help with the pouches ID resource, I’m happy to. Send me an email address and I’ll send photos and descriptions of different pouches. I am fortunate to have the army-navy near work and they have a decent turn-over on small items like pouches. I could include a ruler in photos of pouches I have; others will have to be scaled otherwise.
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RebelLady (Kristina Gundersen)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ID10T wrote:
A big part of what makes this difficult is the randomness of the costumes.

By that I mean: the uniforms are not uniform. Not every (insert character) has the exact same equipment in the same configuration. I think the RFT is about as close to uniform as you find.


For the officers, we would just be looking at General Cracken and Lieutenant Blount because RAID already has a generic standard for this costume and there are only a handle of them on board. So we need to just to reach a consensus on what each of those two have.

ID10T wrote:
And, if I can help with the pouches ID resource, I’m happy to. Send me an email address and I’ll send photos and descriptions of different pouches. I am fortunate to have the army-navy near work and they have a decent turn-over on small items like pouches. I could include a ruler in photos of pouches I have; others will have to be scaled otherwise.


Thank you Jim, that will be much appreciated! I'm about 2/3rds done with my initial draft, and would very much appreciate your help in making any corrections, as well as, adding to it. It will be by no means complete. Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be happy to.

That's actually a lot easier then randomly identifying pouches that may, or may not, have been used in the films.
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G'nott sH'urr (David Campbell)
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim that really helps. Our "surplus" store only sold brand new blackhawk brand pouches while it was open, mostly to airsofters, and another shop is close to 3 hours away, but I havent been there in years.
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