Forum and Costume Controls

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'Unreasonable' standards
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Volund Starfire (Jason Ellenburg)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is this:

What kind of pants does Old Ben wear? What does the back of Old Man Luke's tunic and tabards look like?

Some of the canon costumes we see have details missing but are still approved. The reason is that we try to make the costumes screen accurate, but some of the details aren't seen. Unfortunately, in those cases, the judges can deny a costume if they choose to.

Some of the costume parts we have to take of faith, and can make it as good as screen accurate for the pieces we can see, but need a little bit of flexibility for parts of it.

I can understand a video game costume requiring the turn-around for reference, but television/movies/comics do not always do that. Denying a costume for that reason is trivial and cuts out good guy costumes of the Legion.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since this thread as kinda gone off from its original intent anyways, I'll echo the need to have photo references for each piece in a CRL.

I also like the idea of a minimum standard vs. an accurate standard (aka levels). We kinda have that with "formal" requirements but not really.

We should also think about equivalent info across pages and having the right info easily accessible.

Lets just use an X-wing pilot for an example.

If a person wants to do Luke as an x-wing pilot they see very simple requirements in the CRL such as this: "5. Accurate white flak vest with ribbing."

However if they were going to do a generic X-wing pilot and looked up X-Wing pilot CRL they would get tons of detail about the flak vest but equally nothing useful about the comm pad "Accurate Comm Pad (size, details, 3-dimensional, colouration, etc.) visible in the comm pad pocket."

The CRLs are thus both lacking in details yet also overwhelming. Perhaps we should take a page from the 501st CRLs that provide a good in-between resource?

Part of the problem might be the lack of clarity of how a person should go about becoming involved with the RL and finding information.

Sticking with the X-wing example:

There are pictures of all the pieces of X-Wing costumes, but you have to know to go to http://www.rlsc.rebellegion.com/portfolio/x-wing and the CRL doesn't have a link to that page but rather some other pages of outdated information and broken links. Even if one does somehow find that page and clicks on the photos link, due to the changes in photobucket the site is annoying and full of popups.

I suggest that anyone involved in thinking about Legion membership approach this from the view of a new person who wants to get involved and how complex the process actually seems despite all the attempt to be welcoming.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Id agree with Alan in that pictures say a thousand words and having a photo of said item next to the description makes it ten times easier to see both the detail of the item but as importantly the quality of construction that is expected.

It would be a big job to do this for each and every costume but i think if you were to start with the main most commonly cleared costumes that would be a start.

For costumes that have multiple options such as the generic jedi costume you'd not need to show every iteration of the costume but an idealised and agreed upon representation of the costume would help go along way.

I'll also add that currently the X-Wing ref photos link to a photbucket account and as soon as you click on anything you're inundated with ads and pop-ups
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So as I mentioned already earlier in this topic I think. There is a great danger to put detailled pictures of every costume piece. Because to get such we need to take pics of fan made things. As such, it will serve of reference for next people and not anymore the real props. This will make copies of copies of copies... and with each new iteration some errors will propagate.

You just have to look the Endor donut for example. Most of the fan ones I see are made with indents in the back for the black stripes. Because shots were not clear if it was indents or just painted stripes. However, the book about the OT costumes as a shot clearly showing it's only paint.
I could say the same with other elements I've been working on where it's already super difficult to find reference pictures that are authentic and not fan-made props :s

But another things possible, would be to get blue prints for some elements where we require specific size or "proportions". And for which there is not debate possible with authentic reference pics.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do you do then?
Use reference photos where we have them and ď fanĒ made photos where we donít?
Could you place a disclaimer in the description to state that itís for illustration purposes but our standards arenít correct so you need to do your own research? Which is pretty much what youíre suggesting for the endor helmet?

But if the item in question isnít accurate in either the description or the photo then the standards need to be updated, wouldnít they?

For the photos to support the standards then the photos and the standards need to be correct and accurate or as accurate as we can be given some information maybe 40yrs old and probably not easily if at all obtainable.

Thereís instances in the 501st standards the esb Fett for example where theyíve stated items havenít been confirmed, as long as itís clearly stated in the description that some things are yet to be confirmed it gives scope for flexiblity.

We either need to be flexible and amend the standards as the information gets discovered or inflexible and not formalise the standards ( and clear anyone) until the standards are 100% confirmed with every dent and scratch and stich accounted for.
Iím all for total accuracy but not everyone needs their costume to be, having a tiered system in place maybe part of the answer?

If the Generic Xwing Pilot standard is detailed but Lukeís isnít that could be easily fixed by either copying the missing information into his standards or by linking the two together in the description.
I think if the detachment memebrship is happy with the level of description then thatís a good indicator, right? Should standards periodically come up for review?

Maybe the standards shouldnt be publicly availablle and only via the forum where you can publish the standards and update them easily, then if need be say ďhereís the standards but just remember this isnít correct and this isnít right in the fan made version. Itíll clear like this and but to be really accurate you need to do thisĒ - which is pretty much what we end up doing now anyway.

I dunno, I honestly have no answers but what I do have are new and potential members on our forum who arenít confident the standards up todate and confusing.
Not everyone is a genius and not everyone responds well to reems of text so we should be aiming to be inclusive as possible and get everyone up and running with minimum stress and frustration.

Btw is anyone keeping score on the suggestions? And are any of these suggestions going to be tried it implimented
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ritin Kornas wrote:
So as I mentioned already earlier in this topic I think. There is a great danger to put detailled pictures of every costume piece. Because to get such we need to take pics of fan made things. As such, it will serve of reference for next people and not anymore the real props. This will make copies of copies of copies... and with each new iteration some errors will propagate.

You just have to look the Endor donut for example. Most of the fan ones I see are made with indents in the back for the black stripes. Because shots were not clear if it was indents or just painted stripes. However, the book about the OT costumes as a shot clearly showing it's only paint.
I could say the same with other elements I've been working on where it's already super difficult to find reference pictures that are authentic and not fan-made props :s

But another things possible, would be to get blue prints for some elements where we require specific size or "proportions". And for which there is not debate possible with authentic reference pics.


A slightly off fan-made prop is better than nothing. Writing a description and possibly identifying the issues with the picture is still better than no picture, no reference, and taking the "find it yourself" approach.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: photos - In the UCGR when we put up a new standard for approval by the members we have included photos for pretty much every item required and some of the optionals. However, once the standard was approved the photos did not carry over to the main costume standard page. Was told photos could not be included because our forum server did not have the room. However, we always copied the final standard and added back the photos to it and added it in our detachment forum. Then the photobucket fiasco happened. We are slowly in the process of moving the photos to another site and redoing the image links.

re: WIPs and no LCJ comments. The LCJ's were told not to comment on WIPS by the previous LMO as it was causing problems in the judging. As far as I know the current LMO has not overridden that so that is why LCJ's are not commenting. However, they are observing the WIPs.

re: issues in general. The biggest issue I had as an LCJ is that applicants did not read the standards before submitting their costume. Willrow Hood is a great example - the revised new standard clearly states right at the top: "To all Costumers: This is for the actual character Willrow Hood, not the ďnoveltyĒ version. Please pay special attention to the hair style and mustache as Elvis, pompadour, and other bushy hair styles and oversized mustaches will not be approved." Then under item 6: "6. Hair, mustache and sideburns of a natural hair color need to be a similar style seen on the character, specifically, ears must be exposed, hair is a menís cut, sideburns are long but not bushy Ė no mutton-chops, and mustache is thin, narrow with a slight curve down at the ends. Wigs (and fake mustaches/sideburns) are permitted, but must appear natural. It is preferred that the costumer have no beard, however, a five oíclock shadow is ok, and beards if short, neatly trimmed, and that do not detract from the overall look, may be approved.

Either the photo on the action figure package or the movie figure may be used for reference to hairstyle. " which is then followed by a photo and link to the movie reference and actor photo.

Yet we still get awful sideburns, huge wigs, and giant mustaches. We never required applicants with costumes approved prior to the revision to fix those items changed but had to constantly fight with new applicants that would point to those profiles as "well they did that way why can't I."

Costumes with no standard - If they have the references they can be made - charter says so. But it would help tremendously if the applicant provided the references they used to make the costume in the application. And probably checked with the LMO to be sure they have enough references before making it.

Same goes for doing something that was either omitted or plain out wrong in the current standard. Submit the reference or references used to justify why it is being done differently from the current standard.

It would be nice if no costume could be approved or denied without at least 3 judges chiming in, however, there are not enough members that are willing to judge or feel qualified to judge for that to happen.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The charter is actually pretty clear when it comes to new standards; you can't make a new standard unless you have proof of the different elements in the costume and can see it from both sides.
So if you can make a standard and can make and judge a costume, then that will mean you can also use the references for the standard. Otherwise they clearly weren't good enough to make the standard and costume in the first place.

And it will be a really bad idea to propagate the errors made in copies by using them in the standards.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Relating my personal noob experience on the off chance it is helpful in encouraging change or a PR campaign or something....

I have hung around Rebel Legion for a while and was pretty resolved to NOT submitting any costume, ever. Mostly because of the tone of several of the WIP threads with pretty jerky feedback to folks.

Interestingly, Edrio Two Tubes NOT having any guidance encouraged me to apply with him rather than, say, Plo Koon or something. In fact, the experience of my local Legion folks only confirmed my reluctance to submit any of my previous costumes.

Since Edrio had no CRL and no one else had done it, it was going to be pretty darn difficult to give me BS feedback.

I followed reference VERY closely, wrote my own CRL and breezed in. I hate to even think about submitting anything else I have, unless I did it as a Base Build.

I have Plo and Sidon Ithano all built, but no desire to run the gauntlet of approval of those costumes. Plus, looks like the 501st is taking on Ithano and I can submit him there.

And, for the record, I love all my Base Members - great folks and a lot of fun! Great times at events.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with a lot of points here along with a few!) And thanks )!
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK I have read (most) of here by now
and here some basic ideas to make it easier for costume judges

1) I would ad a box that has to be ticked on, which declares that the person that submits the costume knows that there are costume standards and has read the costume standard.
If you do not tick the box you can not submit the costume.
WHY? I think that still very many costumes are sent in without reading the costume standard....

As a local BMO I further think it would be better, if the person hands me over the pics before sending the in for judging
My duty would be:
1) All pics that are needed? Action, front, left, right, back and if additional detail pics are needed
2) Are the pics useabel? - too dark/light, no crap resoltion?
This would not only strenghten the "team spirit" of the Base, as any member would feel supported by her/his base command crew when sending in a new costume.

ē I further suggest that all Base MOs should be able to READ all comments done by the costume judges at the LCJ area Ė Why ? After the get the first mail back from the LCJ, all members (at least in our base) contact me and ask for help and advice.
ē If I or any other BMO knew the exact thoughts of the LCJ which stand behind the additions to be done to the costume, it is easier the help our local members and I could ask the judging LCJ how she/he thinks the changes should be done. I think any LCJ should at least be able to give a helping advice how to do the demanded changesÖ.

In a second step I would even may change, that the BMO hands in the costume and does all the communication with the local member. The BMO gets all the mails of the LCJ and has to do the local communication . In this way the BMO would start to be more than a titel.

EDIT
taking my local Base members getting all the messages in English is sometimes a REAL problem - this could be solved in that way too....
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

Quote:
1. White ankle-length gown in an opaque, non-shiny knit fabric with high, fitted collar fastened with hooks/eyes. Gown has a white, partially open hood reaching to just below the waist (gathered rectangle style preferred), wrist-length to knuckle length bell sleeves and slits up the sides to or just below the knee. Gown may not have shoulder seams and no center front or back seam. A waist seam is allowed if hidden by the belt. There may not be any center-top seams on the sleeves. Gown should be slightly bloused over the belt at the waist. Gown should be lined using the same fabric as the dress.


Quote:

3- Sleeve and bottom hems have top-stitching. There should
be no top-stitching on the dress. The hems should be
finished with a slip-stitch between the fabric and the
lining.


This was the latest i received. i thought about it and came to the solution: "This is a little bit too much".

Is it less (not) Leia when there is a seam at the end of the sleeves and the dress?
Are we going to deny costumes because of: "The seam-stitch-width is 0,02 mm to smal" ? (and you can see it on a picture Oo )

If there are more steps of qualification this would be the best example for me to make a "Leia" and a "perfect Leia"
---------------------------

*Complexity of Standards
Of corse there should be quality, but some requirements are not good.
I think we need to find a middle course. Some of the costume standards are packed full will text (extrem-special material, special colourcode, etc.), so that i sometimes have the feeling the writer dont like other people make the same costume.

*Presentation of Standards
There should be the same structure for all the standards, clearly arranged. The standards can than be used like a "check list".
There should be a translation of the standards. (what also includes that the standards are written in a way that makes it possible to be translated. - what means no phrases.
There should be a large archiv of reference pictures for a standard (not within any post in the forum where the most of the links are broken)
There should be a printable version of the standards.

*Involving the Membership Officer
The membership officer should be involved to the process.
SHe can
- check if there are all parts of the costume in a good quality,
- check if there are good pictures with no broken links,
- translate the communication beween member and cj (when needed)
---------------------------

I know it will be a lot of work and sometime i am getting stuck in all the chaos of the different standards and it takes month to translate them all, but its time to start the change or we will get lost in our own complicated system.
And we will loose a lot of applicants that have great wonderful costumes, but not "perfect" costumes.

yours
Leroni

PS: I thought at the Rebel Legion we are talking about CS not CRL
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skullflare wrote:
iíve been helping a few new members with their applications, and I can see their frustration with these builds.
We have a bunch of disconnected & potentially inconsistent references with things where the best answer for most is ďitís in the forumsĒ
Iíll just use the basic pilot for example since itís a well known kit
If you google rebel legion pilot CRL you get this for the CRL
http://newsite.rebellegion.com/x-wing-pilot-episode-iv-vi-y-wing-pilot-episode-iv/
there are 2 pictures on the page, one from a parade, and one from the briefing, neither helps a prospective member

but when the judges are looking at a costume, this is the standards they are using
http://www.forum.rebellegion.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8851
there is no link to the judging standards from the main page.

Iíll go a little further down this rabbit hole now that I have your attention
Since a new prospective / newish member would try to look up a costume itís safe to assume the main page should be able to help someone out
So if you go to the:
Costume > standards > (really anything that can find the x-wing pilot)
You get the above page, no link to the criteria of being judged.

But if you go costume reference > starfighter command
This takes you to what I assume is a work in progress page, none of the links actually work from there, and none of these pages even reference the main CRL

We just had a pilot apply, when he got his feedback, there were all sorts of information in there, but not a single reference to the judging standards on it, please note I do believe that the judge probably assumed the applicant knew this already and had been using the page, but it never hurts to make sure.
Now, I know for a fact that there have been at least 3-4 applicants where at the time of application, the CRL was up on the forums and when they applied, the feedback from the judges was very specific information, that was not on the public posted information.
Now if there is a different set of information for the judges than whatís published? Then thatís a pretty big issue.


I've had a similar situation to this happen to me twice now. Once with my X-Wing Pilot (2nd costume) and once with my Generic Jedi (3rd Costume). Both times, I built (or purchased) directly to the published CS, exactly so. And both times my costume was rejected, (the X-Wing for a combination of things that were in forum posts but not in the CS, and/or for the LCJ's personal preference, which went directly AGAINST the published CS, and the Jedi for an item that was in a forum post but not the CS, and has subsequently not been enforced on the next 5 Jedi that I have assisted in joining Echo Base)

When I followed up with the LMO on my X-Wing, I received my reply from the LCJ stating that the LMO agreed with him in this case. I have no way of knowing that because I never received anything back from the LMO. I'm not sure if that is standard procedure or not.

Compounding the issue is that when I looked up the photos of my LCJ for the X-Wing, he was wearing his costume with all of the nitpicks that he picked out with my submission.

It was disheartening, and I can see where a new applicant would just throw up his or her hands and quit.

Background - I am a costume judge for Saber Guild. I know costuming in my admittedly smaller sphere, Clone Wars Era Jedi/Sith, and some Rebellion/TFA/TLJ Face Characters. If you're going to publish standards and expect applicants to build to the standards, all of the nuances should be there and should be applied evenly, IMO. And yes, PLEASE have reference photos.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just would like to repeat 3 things :
- regarding things not in standards. Charter is really clear that standards are a starting point for the judging and that ultimately valid reference are priming. So because something is not in the standard, doesn't mean it can't be required for now, that's the law (I don't say it's a good thing). I guess it can be arguable only in the case where the standard say something in contradiction with what the judge require (like a different color or so).
- charter (I think , or another document) is also clear that other members approved costume can't be taken to point out less accurate details. Just because the standards AND available reference can be evolving with time, and thus new information be there that was not at the time other costumes where approved.

- Finally regarding multi level of approval.
I want to say again that I'm against multiple levels of approvable.
As said multiple time, I think the best solution is to get a standard and a minimum requirement. The standard is as detailed as possible (for people who wants), while the requirement is only parts of the standard, and is the minimum to be validated.
And then people validate and don't validate by matching the requirement.
If they want to go more accurate to the top standard, it's up to them, but there should not be "level 2" validations or such system, as it will just created "clans" and people watching others from top because they are level 2 approved and the other guy as just validated level 1 and because of that "is costume is poodoo" according to the level 2 guys.
I speak by experiences in the 501st who as multiple levels of validation.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ritin Kornas wrote:
Just would like to repeat 3 things :
- regarding things not in standards. Charter is really clear that standards are a starting point for the judging and that ultimately valid reference are priming. So because something is not in the standard, doesn't mean it can't be required for now, that's the law (I don't say it's a good thing). I guess it can be arguable only in the case where the standard say something in contradiction with what the judge require (like a different color or so).
- charter (I think , or another document) is also clear that other members approved costume can't be taken to point out less accurate details. Just because the standards AND available reference can be evolving with time, and thus new information be there that was not at the time other costumes where approved.

- Finally regarding multi level of approval.
I want to say again that I'm against multiple levels of approvable.
As said multiple time, I think the best solution is to get a standard and a minimum requirement. The standard is as detailed as possible (for people who wants), while the requirement is only parts of the standard, and is the minimum to be validated.
And then people validate and don't validate by matching the requirement.
If they want to go more accurate to the top standard, it's up to them, but there should not be "level 2" validations or such system, as it will just created "clans" and people watching others from top because they are level 2 approved and the other guy as just validated level 1 and because of that "is costume is poodoo" according to the level 2 guys.
I speak by experiences in the 501st who as multiple levels of validation.


here we are again that the standard are a "minimum" but different judges judge differnt ways - there is NO equality! THAT is the main problem and this makes peopla angry....

edit i do not want a system based "!one law for them and another one for us"
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The Rebel Legion is a worldwide Star Wars costuming organization comprised of and operated by Star Wars fans. While not sponsored by Lucasfilm Ltd., it is Lucasfilm's preferred volunteer Rebel costuming group. Star Wars, its characters, costumes, and all associated items are the intellectual property of Lucasfilm. © 2018 Lucasfilm Ltd. & ™ All rights reserved. Used under authorization.


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