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'Unreasonable' standards
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Cobalt-60 ()
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think when it comes to unreasonable standards, the original poster was referring to things like this...
(skip ahead to the last 2 posts in the thread)

here, a prospective new member was turned away because they had a seam on the top of the tabbards (@ the shoulder), on a generic jedi costume.

this seems a bit "unreasonable", to scrutinize construction seams (especially on a 'generic' costume, where this requirement is NOT mentioned in the standards).

given the number of jedi in the movies who have a seam on the top of the shoulder,
it took five minutes to find 4 examples.

I believe that scrutinizing 'construction seams' on a generic costume is a bit overzealous.
(or shall we say, "unreasonable").

and I believe this can serve to 'turn away' prospective members who might just get 'turned off' and give up.

if Blair could look into this, and reach out to this prospective member,
then this would go a long way to making this new member feel welcome.

I have provided references of 2 characters (one generic character + one face character (anakin) x3 variant costumes) which all display a seam on the top of the shoulder.

I believe this applicant was denied for the wrong reasons.

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Cobalt-60 ()
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^ in the above post we see things being enforced, which are NOT in the standards.

this is a problem which can be "unreasonable":

when the judges become overzealous, and enforce things which are not in the standards.


the other side of this coin is: things which DO appear in the standards, which are "unreasonable" and shouldn't be there.

here is my example:

(I almost regret taking this photo, because (IMO) it has caused nothing but trouble).

these photos show the "Texture" of the inner-bib on the Luke ROTJ costume.
I took the photos myself with my own camera.

unfortunately, this "texture" found its way into the ROTJ standards for the "Jabba's Palace / Sarlac pit" version of the costume.

"1. Fitted, black long-sleeve plastron shirt w/mandarin-type collar. The bib should be lined with a slubby, linen look fabric in white or very light gray. No visible fastener if the bib is worn open."

why is this unfortunate?

because, for those who have seen the movie, the bib remains closed until the death star duel.

at no point in 'jabba's palace' NOR the 'sarlac pit' does this bib-flap come down;
at NO POINT in these scenes do we ever "See" the inner lining of the bib.

so why is it in the standards? this is "unreasonable"

even MORE unreasonable: this requirement does NOT appear in the "death star duel" version of the standards, where it belongs (!) LOL Razz

1. Black long-sleeve shirt w/mandarin-type collar, with fold-over bib (w/exposeable section by right shoulder with light grey lining).

if this 'texture' is to be required AT ALL, it should be in the "death star duel" version of the standards.
but this requirement does not appear here. because it's simply just not that important.

and this creates a problem:
if this is NOT required for the death star duel version (where the bib is worn open and the lining is cisible)...
...then it becomes "Unreasonable" to include it for the "jabba's palace" scene (where the bib remains closed and the lining is NEVER seen).

why do we have standards for things that are never seen? this is unreasonable.

^^ by comparison (of one Luke standard to the next) we see:
(a) SOME standards in the legion have items which can be seen as "Unreasonable" to a new/prospective member;
(b) there is no 'consistency' from one set of standards to the next.

(and (c) requiring a specific "texture" on a bib-flap which always remains closed,
is "unreasonable" -- regardless of the other luke standards)
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ladysolo14 ()
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I'll say it one last time if people have issues they need to be directed to me and the LMO team. I cannot help if I do not know about it and I can't read every post on the forum.

I can be reached via PM or the follow email addresses:

If I don't know about it I can't help. If you know anyone with issues please encourage them to contact me.
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Lora Skywalker ()
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I highly encourage anyone who thinks they are being unfairly treated to contact the LM team, but please also make sure you have read the standard and done your research on the costume first.
It's easy to become angry and upset, but it is harder to take a critical look at your own work and think it over before you reply. Lashing out won't solve anything, but if applicants write back it might. Communication is a two way street, and way too often applicants never reply no matter how helpful the LCJs try to be. I speak of (bitter) experience where I have tried to help, only to be met with silence. No one can help anyone, who won't communicate.

Now, regarding the CS for Senatorial Leia, I don't really know what to say. I'm not a native English speaker either, Danish is my mother tongue, but I have had to learn the English terms as part of this hobby.
And though I know you don't believe it, knit is actually the correct term for the fabric, since that is what we (the legion) are looking for: a fabric that is knit together rather than woven.
In Danish this would be 'strikket' versus 'vævet'.
Jersey is just one type of knit fabric, but not all types of knit fabric. (For example isoli is another type of knit fabric. Wouldn't recommend isoli for this particular costume though; too thick and fussy). And in Danish jersey would probably not lead people to the right kind of fabric half the time.
The reason the standard asks for a knit fabric is due to the way knit fabrics drape; they generally drape softer and in a more fluid way than woven fabrics do. Woven fabrics tend to be stiffer and won't end up in a flat puddle on the floor if you drop it, but keep some shape.

Do we try to be mindful of translations when writing standards? Of course we do. But there will always be problems when translating betweens languages no matter what you do. Some words simply don't mean the same across the languages and many words have multiple meaning, which can easily cause things to be mistranslated. And there is no way we can prevent this other than trying to be as precise as possible with the English terms and hope the translations won't be completely messed up.
DXO of Royalty & Senatorial detachment

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neimhaille ()
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lokrin wrote:

please define knit cloth as the translation into german does not make any sense to me as my translaten "gewebt" is covered by every cloth

Google translate does in fact work very well in this instance:

I might make another suggestion: translation applications will re-translate what we try to translate.

I read a lot of German. I also buy books from German websites quite often. I use Chrome to translate so I can pay and make sure my shipping is correct. I also sometimes need to email the seller.
When I do this I write in plain English, then I add a link to google translate, then I copy what that translates to. I don't presume to know if the seller has an automatic translator in their browser as they probably are used to email in their own language not mine. This way we both know if the translation is faulty or good.
But regardless of whether they are using a translator they can see where I have tried to use their language and where I have been using mine.
The two sections are separated and not mixed together.

Over all I do see the need to make our guides more technically minded.

It will make them seem less useful initially except that people can then just copy and paste what they are not familiar with into a good search engine and find the answer. I for instance have nearly every 19th century sewing/tailoring/dressmaking manual and they are all searchable online. So It is very easy now to figure out what the difference is between pick stitch and back stitch, and what whipping actually means.
Understanding why an underlining is required is easier now than ever as well.
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Ritin Kornas ()
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just like that...
It's not because google can translate something... that it is translating it appropriately...

If you take the example of knit fabric, to French it will become tricot, which can be appropriate for knit, but not in the case of leia Wink.
And for your example of whipping, it would just make no sense in French. And searching on google images would not help much, while whipstitching on the contrary would be really clear (I guess it's what it means here).

Also, to annoy often enough when rewriting standard, I can tell that sometimes it is translated accurately (generally more by something like linguee that google poor translator for technical words). BUT, I'll take the example of Endor Leia hood. We had big debate on that as I was not understanding what the other was meaning, and finally when I got it, I could understand the translation, but that was such an obscure and old way to say it in French, that at first I just could not understand...

Finally you say sewing and tailoring, etc. manuals are searchable online...
Maybe, but just remember that some people don't or really barely speak english in the RL, and if they are beginners with sewing for example, they will probably have no idea a stitching can be different and thus for them a stitching will be a stitching...

I think any new standards should be checked at least by a non native english for translation issue Wink and to be sure not everything is too obscure. Of course, some obscurity might remain because translation will work in language A and B but not in language C, but it would be better than no check.
CO Rebel Legion Helvetica Base (serving Switzerland)
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